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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Question Time right now!

999 replies

Seeingadistance · 14/10/2021 23:24

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

OP posts:
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9
Datun · 18/10/2021 10:48

The question of how to accommodate in sports those people who have chosen to modify their bodies to resemble those of the opposite sex is nothing to do with women.

Exactly. By this point, I honestly couldn't care less.

Women's sport is for women.

I can't imagine how soul destroying it would be to follow eg women's athletics, only to find you're standing there watching a man. And not only that, the only reason you have to do it, is because of sexism!

No.

Georgist · 18/10/2021 10:50

@Runningupthecurtains

Yep the athletic schedule at the Olympics only became equitable for women and men in 2000. Funny how men weren't clammering to complete as women back in the 60's when there were only a token handful of women's races at the Olympics. Funny how men weren't clammering to compete in women's sports when the prize money was considerably lower than the men's and professionals were only found in a tiny number of sports. Funny how men weren't clammering to compete in women's sport when TV coverage was practically non existent outside of a couple of core events and attendances were pretty much limited to friends and family in many sports.
Do you have any evidence that men are clammering to compete in women's sports for the prize money? There are thousands of men who have no chance of a professional career in men's sports, but could earn a fortune by being the no. 1 in women's sport. None of them have attempted to earn this fortune by identifying as women. I don't think this is surprising - people generally don't want to misrepresent themselves and they wouldn't want to have to maintain a lie about their gender identity in other areas of their lives.

Do you have any evidence that the motives of the transwomen participating in sport are fame and fortune and that their claims of female identity are a lie?

REDHERO · 18/10/2021 11:08

@NiceGerbil

That's Lord Winston to you, random interview man.

Or a bit more, but still not all of it,

The Right Honourable Professor
The Lord Winston of Hammersmith
(FMedSci FRSA FRCP FRCOG FRSB FREng).

TV doctor Robbie Winston points 'demolished' I hear.

The demolisher must be an incredible intellect with a gift for delivering extremely complex concepts in language clear enough to be widely understood. A skill lord Winston is long famous for, hence his popularity with the public mainly via his work in television including the BAFTA award winning series 'the human body'.

Highlights of his awards etc-

Honours and awards Edit
Cedric Carter Medal, Clinical Genetics Society, 1993
Victor Bonney Medal for contributions to surgery, Royal College of Surgeons, 1993
Gold Medallist, Royal Society of Health, 1998
Fellow of the Academy of Medical Sciences (FMedSci), 1998
British Medical Association Gold Award for Medicine in the Media, 1999
Michael Faraday Prize, Royal Society, 1999
Edwin Stevens Medal (the Royal Society of Medicine) 2003
Aventis Prize, Royal Society 2004
Al-Hammadi Medal, Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh 2005
Twenty-three honorary doctorates
The VLV Award for the most outstanding personal contribution to British television in 2004[citation needed]
Honoured by the City of Westminster at a Marylebone tree planting ceremony in July 2011[24][25]
Honorary Fellow[2] of the Royal Academy of Engineering[2] in 2008.
Honorary degrees Edit
Winston has received at least 23 honorary degrees,

Is this the 'TV scientist ' as described.

TV scientist makes him sound like an actor playing a role. A bit like a man playing the role of a woman. TW are TW. Biological women are women, quite simple really.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/10/2021 11:15

Winston is a 'TV scientist' in much the same way Stephen Hawkins was a sit-com cosmologist.

Runningupthecurtains · 18/10/2021 11:18

@Georgist
No I don't have any evidence because no man is going to admit in public that they are gaming the system because if they did it would be clearly demonstratible that they weren't actually Trans but exploiting the trans exemption so could presumably be excluded from women's events.
The vast majority of men are not cheats or liars. Many sportsmen have wives/GFS, children and just claiming to be Trans to get a sporting advantage wouldn't work for them, at least without jeopardizing their home life. Lots of men would think claiming to be a woman would make them less of a man or that their friends would mock them or even that they enjoy playing with the lads so don't want to shift to a women's team. Men prizes/pay and opportunities in sport are still generally greater for men so no pro footballers that can cut it in the fantastically well paid man's game would give that up to play for a less well paid women's team so it would only be those that didn't make the grade that would have anything to gain. Strangely lots of TWs in sport only transition after they have failed in their chosen sport as men (see Hubbard) or once their male career is on the wain thanks to age/injury. Again this seem to be your obsession with scale it doesn't take tens of thousands of men to try this for it to be unfair - it takes one. Male bodies are stronger and quicker then female bodies so they shouldn't be in female sport.

OldCrone · 18/10/2021 11:23

Do you have any evidence that the motives of the transwomen participating in sport are fame and fortune and that their claims of female identity are a lie?

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

And any man who claims a 'female identity' is either lying or deluded. Just like any man claiming a 'child identity' or a 'dog identity' - anyone who is claiming the 'identity' of something they are not.

NecessaryScene · 18/10/2021 11:25

Do you have any evidence that the motives of the transwomen participating in sport are fame and fortune and that their claims of female identity are a lie?

What a weird question. All male claims of female identity are false. Why should it matter which ones are "lies" versus just being confused?

Why should we accept incorrect statements as long as they're not "lies"?

Floisme · 18/10/2021 11:28

Frankly I don't particularly care what their motives are. The point is that women's sport is for women.

Runningupthecurtains · 18/10/2021 11:39

Imagine being a woman in sport, you continued training through female pubity and all that entailed, you put up with the crappy facilities and the restricted opportunities for completion because fewer girls took part in your sport than men. You friendship circle fades away because you are always too busy. The boys at school call you a lesbian or laugh at your unladylike muscles. You are good, you juggle training with normal school while boys of the same ability level were whisked off into well funded training programs. You leave school and continue to juggle training now with a job, you fund your own travel, your own kit, your own coaching while your male contemporaries get that all provided. You are playing for the best female team in the country and when you are in you late 20's that team finally goes professional. You are still earning a fraction of what the men earn but at least the sport is now your job. You would like to have children, the clock is ticking but you know that it will pretty much signal the end of your career so every year you decide to hold off on TTC because hopefully you'll still have time once your sporting days are over.
Now imagine that you lose you place it the team to a man. A man that hasn't had to choose between sport and children, that didn't have to hold down a job and train, that had the backing and the opportunities to make it as a pro but wasn't quite good enough (or worse had the talent but slacked off training and drank a bit too much and ate junk).
The advantages for men in sport go way beyond testosterone, way beyond the physical advantage of a male body. No degree of thinking you are a woman can put a man on the same level as a woman because they have very different experiences from the very start of their sporting journey.

Datun · 18/10/2021 11:45

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Datun · 18/10/2021 11:50

And by the way Georgist, you'll find that most women on here do not subscribe to the belief of transgenderism.

Fortunately, the maya forstarter case has made it crystal clear that not believing in transgenderism is perfectly legitimate.

So guilt tripping, arguments about what modifications would be acceptable, or making assumptions based on transgenderism ideology, don't hold any water.

andyoldlabour · 18/10/2021 11:51

Georgist

All of the athletes who share the same 46 XY DSD - Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui, Mboma, Masilingi, have won huge amounts of money through athletics. I have maintained for a long time, that national federations are actively recruiting these athletes, because women will not be able to be competetive against them.
They are putting national prestige, medals and money before fairness in sport for women.

Artichokeleaves · 18/10/2021 12:03

Do you have any evidence that the motives of the transwomen participating in sport are fame and fortune and that their claims of female identity are a lie?

You mean apart from that they are biologically male?

Georgist · 18/10/2021 12:05

Their motives only matter because you are making that part of your argument! You are saying that men starting competing in women's sports BECAUSE women's sports began to provide opportunities for fame and fortune.

The argument against TW in women's sport doesn't require this assumption. I think it actually weakens the argument because of the absence of evidence for it.

"Men are making a concerted effort to deny sporting opportunities to women by allowing TW in sport" is a conspiracy. It requires evidence to be credible.

"TW are denying sporting opportunities to women. I don't think their desire to compete is necessarily malevolent, but it nevertheless limits women's sporting opportunities" is a position which stands on its own.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 18/10/2021 12:06

I'm pleased not to have read any reports of an extreme pushback to Prof. Sir Robert Winston so far for declining to participate in the immersive fiction that is de facto policy for the Labour Party.

Helleofabore · 18/10/2021 12:06

Georgist

Is there an actual point you are trying to express here?

Otherwise, this seems like an ongoing whataboutery exercise. So, you don't support transitioned males playing in the female category of sport, but keep bringing up 'what about'?

You still have not addressed your point ’I think it's fair enough to say that this TW can't compete in either male or female contact sports ‘.

Or are we just going to ignore the fact that males who transition can actually compete and play with, you know, other males?

And why are we being asked for evidence to answer 'your scale argument' again? You have not once posted any evidence to support any of your theories, or arguments.

How about you answer why any woman or girl should be harmed in any possible way to accommodate males in the female sporting category?

As well as why any transitioned males cannot compete with other males.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/10/2021 12:07

extract

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex — what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse — or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.

But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.

So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks gets ground into meat. That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? Then the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Isn’t it odd that sex was never so complicated before? There was nothing ethereal about our biology when it came to allocating the right to vote, or own property, or walk down the street at night without fear. We knew perfectly well what made someone female when that female-ness guaranteed a life of subservience and pain. Only when women began to say no did their bodies become a concept. So many feminists have made this point, over and over again. I see them say it. I know you read it. Did you listen? If not, why? And why do you always respond when I say it? It seems you do know who has a female body, when it comes to decide which perspective is ignored.

Sex is such a mystery to you when women want shelters for themselves, meetings for themselves, words for themselves. Pardon me for asking, but is it equally mysterious when you log off Twitter and move over to Pornhub? The true nature of a female body is so complex when you lecture. Does it become simple again when you masturbate? Who does the laundry in your house? Were you somehow able to navigate an inchoate soup of X’s and Y’s to saddle your girlfriend with the dishes? Give yourself some credit — I think you know perfectly well what a female body is. But in case you don’t, here’s a hint:

It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until the moment we decided we couldn’t figure out what the fuck it even means.

You know what a female body is, dude? It’s the only type of body that makes men like you ask such stupid questions. So please, stop. This is an emergency. This is three and a half billion human beings tied to the tracks, and you’re riding on the train. Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common sense — it doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole. It makes you worse than a bystander. A bystander does nothing. He watches from afar. You step into the fray just to prod the victim. I’m not going to step in too, laying out my rebuttal over the screams. It’s just not worth it.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The moment they’re confused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions thatdon’tmake a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave rape crisis centers alone.

Continues: genderarguments.com/openletterbiologicalsex/

Artichokeleaves · 18/10/2021 12:08

I've honestly lost all interest in the ins and outs of it now.

Male people have no place in female sports by the fact that they are male. That's pretty much the end of it. This is all inclusive of males regardless of race, creed, belief, ability, or anything else.

If new sport classes are needed for male athletes that's another issue.

Datun · 18/10/2021 12:13

@Georgist

Their motives only matter because you are making that part of your argument! You are saying that men starting competing in women's sports BECAUSE women's sports began to provide opportunities for fame and fortune.

The argument against TW in women's sport doesn't require this assumption. I think it actually weakens the argument because of the absence of evidence for it.

"Men are making a concerted effort to deny sporting opportunities to women by allowing TW in sport" is a conspiracy. It requires evidence to be credible.

"TW are denying sporting opportunities to women. I don't think their desire to compete is necessarily malevolent, but it nevertheless limits women's sporting opportunities" is a position which stands on its own.

Of course there are going to be males, and nations, doing it for the kudos.

And certainly in poorer countries, for the money.

I think it's far more unlikely that you are going to find any man, any man at all, who is doing it because they genuinely think they are actually a woman.

From Rachel McKinnon, who was quite happy to believe that it might ruin women's sport but who cares, to Laurel Hubbard who transitioned when they were 35.

The mindset required to believe that you've changed sex at the age of 35 does not, in my opinion, indicate the stability required to be a top athlete.

But none of it is in the slightest bit relevant.

Women's sport is for women.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/10/2021 12:13

My answer to male athletes in women's sports is no.

It's not a thought experiment to enjoy pondering.

Question Time right now!
RedDogsBeg · 18/10/2021 12:15

Georgist you are coming up with a million different excuses and reasons for TW to be included in and compete against females - what about this, how about this, what if - my question to you is why are you so determined to have TW included in any female sport?

Males have no place in female sport, anywhere, anytime, any place. female sport is for females, it is not for males not matter what modifications they do or don't make, females who dope with testosterone, for whatever reason, are also excluded. Both situations are cheating. TW and TM have made choices they need to accept the impact of and responsibility for those choices.

Helleofabore · 18/10/2021 12:16

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

My answer to male athletes in women's sports is no.

It's not a thought experiment to enjoy pondering.

A timely placed gif there Purgatory.

Like a beacon.

Georgist · 18/10/2021 12:16

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Pinkfairylights · 18/10/2021 12:18

Who cares why men want to join women's teams. They should leave well alone.

Datun · 18/10/2021 12:19

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

My answer to male athletes in women's sports is no.

It's not a thought experiment to enjoy pondering.

Indeed.

How many times have I seen people desperate to enjoy conversations with women over exactly how, and why they are oppressed, and how much we are expected to help turn the screw.

Nah.