Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

@OldCrone
"Obviously just demanding and doing has a greater effect than persuading."

I'm not sure why that's obvious. I would think probably the trans activists have managed to convince a lot of people that they are discriminated against.

But even so, I'm not sure what "just doing" in opposition to the admittance of TW would mean. Would you just forcibly eject them?

@Runningupthecurtains

DSD and trans are separate issues and need separate solutions. People with DSDs have repeatedly asked not to be used in the argument.

The difference with drugs and with overage competitors in youth is that they are not allowed. Yes some athletes take drugs or lie about their age but they aren't supposed to - in short they cheat. Where as currently TW are allowed to compete as women so can do so without breaking the rules. That's why there are drugs tests and people lose medals and serve bans if they are caught. I can't think of a single sport that says 'well people take performance enhancing drugs anyway so we'll stop making them illegal'.

Does it make a difference for non-drug taking women though? Losing to drug-takers who should be banned and losing to TW who shouldn't be allowed to compete seem equally unfair to me.

What do you suggest about DSD?

Christ the minimising.

It doesn't happen. And if it does it's not that bad....

I mean assuming you are an actual 'these are my real thoughts' person can you not hear yourself?

I'm not a Dr, geneticist or responsible for the policies of a sporting body. I'm not in any way shape or form qualified to suggest how people DSD in sports should be treated. But I do know that whatever solutions are found regarding people with DSDs they don't justify the inclusion of TW in women's sport.

@RainbowCrossing

Christ the minimising.

It doesn't happen. And if it does it's not that bad....

I mean assuming you are an actual 'these are my real thoughts' person can you not hear yourself?

I didn't say "it" doesn't happen. I have repeatedly stated agreement with many of the positions of others posters, but I challenge others. I am not stating thoughts. I'm asking questions and making arguments. Playing devil's advocate can be an important part of strengthening arguments. I might agree with you (or come to agree with you) 100%, but think some of your arguments are not persuasive. And of course vice versa.

Another point about sport in particular reference to the US is that many sportspeople get College sponsorship. This is problematic as what is beginning to happen is mediocre male athletes are identifying as female to obtain the coveted scholarship to College and thus denying a place to female athletes.

Georgist

What arguments do you find weak?

Why are we being derailed into talking about DSDs yet again?

The existence of people with disorders of sexual development does not and will not ever mean bog standard men with XY chromosomes are women just because they say so.

Furthermore, in Scotland the head of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre is a trans women and is legally a man. This role was advertised for female applicants only under the Equalities Act exemption, yet a man got this hugely sensitive role.

@KittenKong

I’ve got a period from hell at the moment (imagine your worst and times it by a million). I’m having a fair idea of ‘womaning’ at the moment. My males don’t but they understand it’s best to keep feeding me tea and cake, and not piss me off (or stay too lolling in the bathroom).

I’m sorry you had a shit period yesterday. But presuming yours is a million times worse than mine used to be due to everything I’ve been through and am going through is really upsetting.

@OvaHere

Why are we being derailed into talking about DSDs yet again?

The existence of people with disorders of sexual development does not and will not ever mean bog standard men with XY chromosomes are women just because they say so.

This! And if people cheat by lying about their age or by taking drugs, it's also completely irrelevant. Whataboutery at its finest. Men being allowed into women's sports is a separate topic, and it's not women's job to soothe every sad man's fevered brow by letting him hurt women on a rugby field.

Also this
Playing devil's advocate can be an important part of strengthening arguments. I might agree with you (or come to agree with you) 100%, but think some of your arguments are not persuasive. And of course vice versa.
Is pretty patronising considering your contributions aren't exactly groundbreaking, Georgist.

Well particularly since they amount to 'yeah but how many people is it hurting really?'

I mean you could say that about most things couldn't you? 'ISIS kidnaps 200 girls', 'yeah but that's a tiny number.'

'Man slaughters innocent bystanders with machete in terrorist act.' 'Well, only 20 of them.'

'Old lady loses life savings in online scam.' 'Yeah but just her right? And the scammer is now £20k richer.'

I bet you don't though. I bet it's just women who are expected to suck it up.

@FlyingOink
"And if people cheat by lying about their age or by taking drugs, it's also completely irrelevant. Whataboutery at its finest. Men being allowed into women's sports is a separate topic"

It's not whataboutery. I'm not arguing for TW in sports (I'm not saying the TW in sports doesn't matter because there are drugs). I'm explaining why competitors seem to be more concerned about drugs.

There are more drug cheats. For example in athletics numerous women have had their medals upgraded after drug cheats were removed. Are there any cases involving TW? (There have been several DSD, but as another poster pointed out, that's not the same as TW. Also, athletics has taken some steps to resolve this, by requiring them to reduce testosterone levels)

Also, athletics has taken some steps to resolve this, by requiring them to reduce testosterone levels.

Any idea how they can resolve a different pelvis and skeletal structure, the existing effects of male puberty, faster twitch fibre in muscles, larger heart and lung capacity plus the many other differences in male and female anatomy?

In the grand scheme reduced testosterone means fuck all and the so called 'acceptable' reduced level set by sporting bodies is still much higher than any woman can produce.

@RainbowCrossing

Well particularly since they amount to 'yeah but how many people is it hurting really?'

I mean you could say that about most things couldn't you? 'ISIS kidnaps 200 girls', 'yeah but that's a tiny number.'

'Man slaughters innocent bystanders with machete in terrorist act.' 'Well, only 20 of them.'

'Old lady loses life savings in online scam.' 'Yeah but just her right? And the scammer is now £20k richer.'

I bet you don't though. I bet it's just women who are expected to suck it up.

No, I think the scale of a problem and the steps to resolve it should always be a consideration.

I don't always think the solution is obvious. For example, how people avoided dying from covid or getting long covid as a result of lockdowns and how many people were abused or killed as a result of lockdowns? Do you accuse all lockdown advocates of being misogynists who didn't care about domestic abuse? Or do you acknowledge this is a genuinely difficult policy choice?

Do you think it is ever appropriate to weigh probabilities and costs and benefits? Or do you just think there are certain issues where one factor should outweigh all others?

If you think anyone who questions you views on the rights of TW, how do you explain public opinion on TW? (in particular amongst women:
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights)
Do you think the women who disagree with you are self-loathing or deluded?

No I think that tje vast majority of the public haven’t a clue that the definition of trans used in such polls is the stonewall definition ie ranging from NB, ppl who cross dress, and ppl who feel like a woman on certain days of the week

Are there any cases involving TW?

What about the woman who didn't get to play professional football in their top league in Argentina?
What about the woman who didn't get s professional career in volleyball in Brasil?
What about the female cyclist who didn't get a professional contract in Holland?
What about the female athlete who didn't get a professional game with an Italian volleyball club?
What about the American woman who didn't win the monetary first prize and the one who earned nothing at all in a professional golf march?
All of these women lost out financially because a person born male took their place.
How many is enough?

Point out in includes the Danielle muscato and Alex Drummond’s of this works and the answers are very different

@OvaHere

Also, athletics has taken some steps to resolve this, by requiring them to reduce testosterone levels.

Any idea how they can resolve a different pelvis and skeletal structure, the existing effects of male puberty, faster twitch fibre in muscles, larger heart and lung capacity plus the many other differences in male and female anatomy?

In the grand scheme reduced testosterone means fuck all and the so called 'acceptable' reduced level set by sporting bodies is still much higher than any woman can produce.

No. What I was disputing was that sport was likely to be overrun by TW.

There are thousands of boys and men who could smash women's records if they identified as women. But they don't.

Ahhh 334bu you know it’s always N+1 innit!

@Theeyeballsinthesky

No I think that tje vast majority of the public haven’t a clue that the definition of trans used in such polls is the stonewall definition ie ranging from NB, ppl who cross dress, and ppl who feel like a woman on certain days of the week

Yes this. Women have crowdfunded our own polling using reputable polling companies.

The results are very different when people understand you are not talking about a tiny number of people who have had genital surgery but adult males with fully functioning penises who might be put in a hospital bay with themselves, their mother, sister etc...

This is clearly starting to dawn on the public now thanks to whistleblowers in all sorts of sectors. Only the other week we discovered that convicted male rapists were being put on women's hospital wards and women lied to about it and assaults covered up.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

No I think that tje vast majority of the public haven’t a clue that the definition of trans used in such polls is the stonewall definition ie ranging from NB, ppl who cross dress, and ppl who feel like a woman on certain days of the week

What difference does that make? People who cross dress, feel like a woman on certain days of the week, etc. are all still biologically men. So that wouldn't affect their answers to the questions in that survey. It is also had a series of questions "when specified that the transgender person in question had not had gender reassignment surgery."

@OvaHere
"Women have crowdfunded our own polling using reputable polling companies."
Please could you provide a link to these survey results?

No. What I was disputing was that sport was likely to be overrun by TW.

And? Whether it is one or hundreds , the above female athletes have all been financially disadvantaged. Does it not matter that they have been denied the opportunity to earn a living doing the sport they love?

For example in athletics numerous women have had their medals upgraded after drug cheats were removed. Are there any cases involving TW?

In the US girls are missing out on college scholarships because boys are identifying as girls and competing in their events.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3519465-Student-who-lost-track-championship-to-transgender-athletes-speaks-out

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3616111-Connecticut-high-school-athletes-file-Title-IX-complaint-over-mixed-sex-competition

This is a thread about girls and women losing out to males in sport:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175263--No-Trans-Olympian-List-of-women-and-girls-disadvantaged-in-sport-resource-thread

How many girls and women need to lose out to males before you consider it a problem?