Is the Trans Issue like Brexit?

[LaetitiaASD]

Brexit relied on being everything to as many people as possible. They never made any one specific promise, you could vote brexit if you hated immigration, or hated the alleged bureaucracy (it's not that big), of feared for an eu army, or turkey joining, or you wanted to wave a st george's cross or you hated political correctness etc etc.

TRAs are the same. They cannot actually specifically define what they believe or what they want. They rely 100% on vagueness and never actually saying anything concise and definitive.

Maybe this is obvious, but it just occurred to me.

Third spaces are the ideal way forward but we’ve been told repeatedly that this is unkind & excluding

@NandJ

Yes in the way that if you aren't on the "good" side (Remain/TWAW) you're labelled as vermin subjected to abuse up to and including death/rape threats.

Even as a Remain voter myself I'd rather be stuck in a lift with a Brexity blokey than a Remainer wokey. More chance of coming out in one piece.

Most of my British based Remain friends don't say anything now. They've given up really. But there is more room for compromise on this subject. You could have a Brexit that wasn't so harmful or xenophobic. Not sure this is true of the gender question.

I have a feeling that third (or fourth) spaces would be built and remain largely empty.
Because a woman's space is only attractive because of the women in it.
By that I don't mean that predatory men will attempt to gain access to vulnerable women and girls (although that does happen) - but that TW and TM would still use their chosen facility in line with their perceived sex.
Women's spaces are only coveted because they ARE women's spaces. A mixed sex or TW or TM space is no good for those who require validation of their chosen sex.
I've a feeling it would be a pointless and costly exercise to provide all these extra spaces.

I can get why the trans community thinks that 3rd spaces would be exclusionary. How about the 3rd space is the sex-segregated one? Then women feel excluded i guess. Interesting question.

But - if the majority agreed that 3rd spaces are the best way forward because women feel safe/included and transwomen/transmen feel safe/included then anyone who argues against a 3rd space is arguing for excluding. And we are about inclusion. So the compromise there would be to have a 3rd space in the knowledge that the majority are happy with it.

As for Brexit - most of my remain friends are either Brits in EU countries (like me, and some are stuck because they don't meet citizenship criteria) or despairing in the UK (some of whom are also stuck because they don't meet citizenship criteria). But most of us are agreed that it is
a) done
and
b) we have to make the best of it
but
c) are not shy about saying "we told you so" because we did.

yes, to the third space being sex segrated!

So the human rights I expect to be applied to everyone is the application of common sense
That is not a human right! Whose "common sense", anyway? - it's such a subjective term.

What we should hope for is that the same, just laws are applied fairly and impartially to all. No country is run by "common sense", it is run by legislation.

@eurochick

They not completely correct as men have nipples. So the longer the male chromosome starts to work might be a reason for mtf trans

So I do rather know a lot about the new work on this area and certainly have advanced from o level.

Casca--that ain't how it works, pal.

And we all have an appendix in our gut, Cascas, but that doesn't mean we can digest cellulose.

Foetuses follow the same blueprint (which is not to say that they are all female like your earlier suggestion). When the Y chromosome 'kicks in' the nipples have already been formed.
Evolutionary speaking, there is no point in them being erased in males because it serves no evolutionary purpose to change the blueprint.

But as a Doctor you will already know this.

The calibre of TRAs on this site seems to be decreasing, from an already lowly position

@TheElementsSong

The calibre of TRAs on this site seems to be decreasing, from an already lowly position

Agreed.

@TheElementsSong

The calibre of TRAs on this site seems to be decreasing, from an already lowly position

Makes me wistful for the Clownfish days.

@Brefugee

I am an older gender nonconforming woman who (clap) has (clap) never (clap) in (clap) my (clap) life (clap) EVER seen or had any trouble in a ladies loo.

good for you. I was in the army and there was often problems around using the ladies (and not all of it related to how they looked).

But you go ahead and deny other women's experiences

The point i was making is that there are occasions when it has been REALLY difficult to tell if someone is one gender or another.

I think you are talking about homophobia.

If it were genuinely difficult to tell which people were female nobody would bother stopping women voting or driving cars or graduating from university or going to school.

[quote Cascascascas]@WarriorN

How rude. I am doctor.
You are clearly arrogant.[/quote]
If you are a medical Dr who does not know the very basics about the human body then you are incompetent and need to be struck off.

we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.

But I am not included in statements like that. When you use the term 'women and birthing parents' you introduce the concept of identity as somehow relevant to the process of giving birth and suggest that you are only talking to the teeny tiny minority of people who conflate their body with their identity. For the vast majority of women, their identity has got fuck all to do with the process of pushing a baby out of your twat. In the above statement I cannot see myself as a woman and neither do I see myself as a birthing parent. In reality you'd be hard pushed to be less inclusive.

I have skimmed some of this thread but did we get answer as to what sort of Dr Cascascascas is?
Or should that be Dr Who?
Maybe identifies as a (medical) Dr so actually IS one?

@2old4thissite

I have skimmed some of this thread but did we get answer as to what sort of Dr Cascascascas is? Or should that be Dr Who? Maybe identifies as a (medical) Dr so actually IS one?

Must be a proctologist because they are talking out of their arse.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.

But I am not included in statements like that. When you use the term 'women and birthing parents' you introduce the concept of identity as somehow relevant to the process of giving birth and suggest that you are only talking to the teeny tiny minority of people who conflate their body with their identity. For the vast majority of women, their identity has got fuck all to do with the process of pushing a baby out of your twat. In the above statement I cannot see myself as a woman and neither do I see myself as a birthing parent. In reality you'd be hard pushed to be less inclusive.

Agree.

"Human Rights" are defined in treaty, in the UN Universal Declaration on Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights.

The UN Declaration says in Article 1:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2 says:

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status..

Starting with the Yogyakarta Conference, the Trans lobby has sought to add Gender (identity) to that list.

Article 7 says:

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

and Article 18 says:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

..."Everyone" in this context is a specific legal term. It means "Everyone."

And Article 19:

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

A20:

Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association. No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

and Article 25, unfortunately, as a result of lobbying, says that everyone has a right to paid holidays. Which is really not a human right. But it's in there. So it is.

Well there we go- in b&w article 1 “in brotherhood”.

Even the fucking UN human rights is male-centric.

One major difference is that Labour has actually established a firm position whereas Corbyn refused to come out as leave or remain as he himself was anti-EU but his party wasn’t. Unfortunately it is the wrong position. They are losing women’s support left and right, so to say.

I don't want to share single sex spaces with men, no matter how they identify or how vulnerable they are.

I have a lovely cousin with a learning disability who has experienced bullying, like a lot of people with disabilities. He'd be safer in the ladies, despite being built like a tank.

But he uses the men's.

I have a lovely cousin with a learning disability who has experienced bullying, like a lot of people with disabilities. He'd be safer in the ladies, despite being built like a tank.

that's awful and it is a "man problem" which i believe is up to society in general and men in particular to tackle. He presumably doesn't feel ok using the accessible toilet? I could understand that too.

Yes, sadly it's a man problem, as is ensuring that there are safe spaces for transwomen to pee without using women's facilities.