Is the Trans Issue like Brexit?

[LaetitiaASD]

Brexit relied on being everything to as many people as possible. They never made any one specific promise, you could vote brexit if you hated immigration, or hated the alleged bureaucracy (it's not that big), of feared for an eu army, or turkey joining, or you wanted to wave a st george's cross or you hated political correctness etc etc.

TRAs are the same. They cannot actually specifically define what they believe or what they want. They rely 100% on vagueness and never actually saying anything concise and definitive.

Maybe this is obvious, but it just occurred to me.

Well, they’re very divisive and emotive subjects, but I don’t see them as being particular similar, no. Gender ideology is sui generis IMO - its aim is to fundamentally change everyone’s understanding of one of the key concepts in human life, the sexual binary. I can’t think of any other ideology attempting something similar. Not even religions, whose aims seem to be more around explanations for these phenomena and building structures around them.

Gender ideology accepts no quarter, no doubt, no questioning either, which does make it like religion, but not brexit really. The ‘sides’ in brexit merely needed enough people voting their way. They didn’t need every voter and they didn’t need their voters to be completely without doubt. Nor did they particularly care about others disagreeing. Some, I would say, enjoyed that aspect!

Brexit was a political decision about the future of a country. Deeply important because whichever way it went would affect the future, but not attempting to change our understanding of ourselves.

This post has made me think there may be one similarity though... I disagree with some posters about arrogant remainers. Not that they don’t exist, but with the narrative that the arrogance and bullying went one way and the idea that being strongly remain was in some way distasteful. I can recall an awful lot of gloating on sm about remainer tears after the referendum. More importantly, I don’t feel sorry for finding the reasoning behind remain lacking and saying that (civilly); I actually think it’s important to stand up for that. The TRA issue is all about shutting down criticism and debate, and I feel more passionately than ever that we should be able to criticise ideas. There may have been a lot of abuse being hurled from all quarters after the brexit vote, but outlets like the guardian also quickly sprung into action with handwringing articles about how leavers had not been listened to. I feel like some of the same thing is at work in this (non)debate: shame and guilt at being in a perceived privileged group. Not really true in either of these situations IMO.

I have thought of another similarity - I don't think Johnson and Gove ever thought they would have to enact Brexit, and Keir Starmer doesn't given the impression that he has given 2 minutes thought to the consequences of creating the legislation he suggests he supports.

@merrymouse

I have thought of another similarity - I don't think Johnson and Gove ever thought they would have to enact Brexit, and Keir Starmer doesn't given the impression that he has given 2 minutes thought to the consequences of creating the legislation he suggests he supports.

Agreed.

And from our elected politicians, that is pretty unforgivable.

@WarriorN

Trying not to launch into the sex development of chickens here.

Aww come on, I want to know now!

I think you can compare freedom of movement with mixed sex spaces and self-ID. They are things that would work in a utopia, where everyone in the world is equal, well off, protected and safe, but in reality, while they work pretty well for the secure middle and upper classes, when it comes to the more socially vulnerable they can and are being exploited and abused, particularly as Britain, unlike other EU countries, does not have ID cards. The friends who work in social services voted Leave. They were dealing with the dark side of open borders we don't like to think about.

@IvyTwines2

I think you can compare freedom of movement with mixed sex spaces and self-ID. They are things that would work in a utopia, where everyone in the world is equal, well off, protected and safe, but in reality, while they work pretty well for the secure middle and upper classes, when it comes to the more socially vulnerable they can and are being exploited and abused, particularly as Britain, unlike other EU countries, does not have ID cards. The friends who work in social services voted Leave. They were dealing with the dark side of open borders we don't like to think about.

This is a great point. Middle class, educated women are highly unlikely to ever end up in prison, just as middle class Jemimas working in publishing can't imagine their job being threatened by a sudden influx of cheap labour.

Edgeofacoin - exactly. There were reasonable arguments for and against membership of the EU (though I think many of the problems could have been solved without leaving) and there was a debate over Brexit. I’d be happier if Remain had won, but I dislike the portrayal of those who voted to leave as mindless bigots.

Cascascascas gives the perfect example of what’s wrong with the trans issue. Abuse is the trans lobby’s only weapon.

Frankly?
I would have voted remain (but not allowed to vote) but now Brexit is the reality we all have to make sure that it works, because the alternative is too awful. So it is fine to say that you prefer to be in the EU, but confronted with the reality of Brexit we need solutions that work within the framework of the fact that Britain is no longer in the EU.

With Trans issues, I feel pretty much the same. The genie is not going back in the bottle, and the reality of our lives is that there are trans people and they are people who should have human rights afforded to them the same as anyone else. So you many not believe TWAW but the fact is that they are here and we have to find the least damaging way forward.

So - and i agree that there are a lot of things that need to be sorted out and clarified - we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.

That is not to say that i don't think that there is a need for single-sex spaces, because clearly many people want them. But we have to find a way forward because how things are now is clearly not acceptable to many people.

I don't think Johnson and Gove ever thought they would have to enact Brexit, and Keir Starmer doesn't given the impression that he has given 2 minutes thought to the consequences of creating the legislation he suggests he supports.

Depressingly true.

Middle class, educated women are highly unlikely to ever end up in prison, just as middle class Jemimas working in publishing can't imagine their job being threatened by a sudden influx of cheap labour.

Also true.

[quote Cascascascas]@WarriorN

How rude. I am doctor.
You are clearly arrogant.[/quote]
Doctor of what?
I know someone who is a doctor, he got his PhD in astrophysics. I doubt he'd claim to be an expert on genetics. He does know an awful lot about the stars though.

we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.

I disagree. Nothing feminists are fighting for, in defence of women and children, is harmful to men or to trans people. Anything we give up means a reduction in women’s and children’s rights.

I don't think it's a helpful analogy. I voted Remain, but I can understand why people voted Brexit, and I know plenty of intelligent and thoughtful people who did so.

The trans issue is a very different kettle of fish. It's based on an absolute denial of scientific reality, and is being pushed by postmodernist academics who want to destabilise the social fabric. It is also deeply misogynistic and is designed to remove women's fundamental sex-based rights.

I don't agree though. This just makes it into two sides who will never ever come to an agreement. And I think that conceding the small point of "women and..." Shows willingness to compromise on something with the expectation of compromise on other things.

I really don't know the answer though.

Cascascascas at least demonstrates very well why it isn’t helpful to divide people into ignorant Brexiters and informed Remainers.

(Although perhaps unintentionally).

It was following I am doctor with You are clearly arrogant that got me!

I think this debate is more like Brexit than not in how it is playing out among families and society in general.
I wonder if this is the new politics now, no middle ground and demonise the 'other side'?
I really hope we can ditch this latest American import as it will end in civil war if all future political disputes are like this.

[quote Cascascascas]@WarriorN

How rude. I am doctor.
You are clearly arrogant.[/quote]
Is no argument at all...
Come back with facts and logic.

the reality of our lives is that there are trans people and they are people who should have human rights afforded to them the same as anyone else.
What rights are being denied them?

@Lovelyricepudding

I voted Brexit. I voted that way because of what I saw as an increasing democratic deficit. I didn't expect an easy ride because of Brexit. In the short to medium term I thought things were likely to be easier if I voted remain.

I don't see similarities with TRA other than perhaps another democratic deficit - though the TRA thing is more like a coup. But unlike Brexit/Remain the country is not divided down the middle which is why TRA has happened by stealth and debate suppressed.

Me too. I agree with this.

I don't really like the comparison. But both expose how out of touch and arrogant the 'political class' have become. Cameron held a referendum convinced he'd win. Labour revealed their contempt for their working class voters.

On Trans issues they've made the mistake of having a public consultation after smuggling through the GRA by stealth because they think women and voters are sheep who'll do as there told. Big mistake, the problem is more suffering is caused by this.

So - and i agree that there are a lot of things that need to be sorted out and clarified - we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.

‘Woman’ when used to refer to sex is a neutral term that makes no judgement about identity and includes everyone whose sex is female.

I don’t agree that women just have to get used to the idea that ‘woman’ can only refer to an identity that seems to be based largely on the sexist stereotypes that have been used to oppress women for centuries.

No other members of a group are forced to define themselves in this way.

I'm pretty sure that DR Cascascascas is a troll.
However, as is has been pointed out and as is known by anyone with rudimentary understanding of biology, sex is determined at the point of conception.
It's not Jurassic Park, Dr Casacascascas.

However, just in case the eminent Dr is not a troll, its scary to believe that a lot of Trans ideology relies on people's lack of knowledge and understanding about biology or genetics. Just casually throwing in a comment like 'all foetuses are female' and the like is such a common ploy by some trans ideologists. Some people hear 'facts' like that and take it as gospel.
There was a poster on here in recent months (I think she still posts under another name as I recognise her writing style and the idiotic arguments she comes up with) who stated that vagina's were exactly the same a penises, only 'internal'. That all foetuses were female. That sex is not binary and on a spectrum. And many other factually incorrect nonsense, and the scary thing was she claimed to be a sex education teacher. If that is true, we are truly down the rabbit hole.

The good thing is that real science is provable and these arguments can be exposed for what they are.
Propaganda.

I think there are similarities, but not in the way you appear to be suggesting. With both issues, one side have positioned themselves as having the moral high ground (or being on the right side of history) and assume that the other side are bigots / alt right / old / stupid etc. It didn't work for Brexit and it won't work for the attack on women's rights because you can't really change people's minds by calling them names. What you are likely to do is further alienate them.

I think there are obviously ways in which Brexit is similar to the trans ideology issue, but as PPs have said, I think it's more a hindrance than a help to compare the two.

Both are polarising issues and any attempts to draw parallels are likely to polarise people further and weaken any actual arguments grounded in logic and relevant facts.

Lots of things are similar to lots of other things, but I think pulling in another hugely complex and sprawling issue (with the potential for another messy heap of assumptions to be debated that have zero to do with sex/gender) is a mistake if the aim is to explore/explain the issue of sex/gender oppression.

However, if the aim is to keep a conversation going for a very long time, distract someone or just rub people up the wrong way, then it probably works great!