Is the Trans Issue like Brexit?

[LaetitiaASD]

Brexit relied on being everything to as many people as possible. They never made any one specific promise, you could vote brexit if you hated immigration, or hated the alleged bureaucracy (it's not that big), of feared for an eu army, or turkey joining, or you wanted to wave a st george's cross or you hated political correctness etc etc.

TRAs are the same. They cannot actually specifically define what they believe or what they want. They rely 100% on vagueness and never actually saying anything concise and definitive.

Maybe this is obvious, but it just occurred to me.

[quote Cascascascas]@WarriorN

How rude. I am doctor.
You are clearly arrogant.[/quote]
Oh dear.

How rude. I am doctor

😆

Did you mean to be so rude?

rends cloth

ahhhh I do love it when we get visitors like this. I’m knackered from work & would really like to sleep more than 3 hours at a time (thanks menopause!) but someone using the old “I’m a doctor” when shown to be completely scientifically wrong always makes me laugh

I voted Brexit. I voted that way because of what I saw as an increasing democratic deficit. I didn't expect an easy ride because of Brexit. In the short to medium term I thought things were likely to be easier if I voted remain.

I don't see similarities with TRA other than perhaps another democratic deficit - though the TRA thing is more like a coup. But unlike Brexit/Remain the country is not divided down the middle which is why TRA has happened by stealth and debate suppressed.

@EdgeOfACoin thats basically what i was going to say. There was a lot of debate. I also was staunchly remain but there were leave points that were true.

[quote Cascascascas]@WarriorN

How rude. I am doctor.
You are clearly arrogant.[/quote]
Doctor of what?

Doctor of what?

Gender studies?

A dr that doesn't understand pre-gcse level biology?😄

As has been said, sex is determined at conception, by which sperm joins with the egg to give either xx or XY chromosomes.

Nothing like it OP, I don’t think there is a correlation between people who voted Brexit and those who are TRAs. Quite the opposite i think, in fact. All the pronounced people, and TWAW tend to be non Brexiteers from what I’ve seen.

Brexit was a lie sold buy ignorant toffs to gullible people with a horrid hint of money racism and past glory of empire

See this is where I think trans ideology is like Brexit, comparing the genderism side to the brexiteer side.

I’d replace racism with sexism and empire with purity spiralling/virtue signalling/jostling for moral high ground.

Some people voted for brexit for clear and thoughtful reasons but many were simply lied to. Trans ideology is similar in that there’s a genuine case that transition is for some but it’s been surrounded by lies and invested interests and become a thing that people “believe in” of false grounds. (of course different in that there isn’t a single all-or-nothing vote, but it still affect law and state policy)

Then there’s a mess when it gets enacted (gender neutral toilets in schools, rapists in women’s prisons, transition regret, cf brexit shortages, lack of workforce, visa nightmares for performers, red tape on imports, no freedom of movement for us) and a lot of denial and argument.

In both cases the full disaster is yet to become apparent though even as a strong remainer I think brexit is probably the lesser disaster.

That is not to say at all that I think there’s a correlation between tras/allies and brexit voters - that’s a different question, and I don’t. More the way in which people have been lied to, the paper trail to the money, the dodgy motivations involved, and how it’s caused us all to have to suffer some horrible consequences,

'l am doctor.'

I think the main similarity is the insistence on pretending things don't exist - sex, the Northern Ireland Border.

However, given the number of prominent Remainers who now seem completely divorced from reality, (Fox Botherer being the most obvious) it's difficult to believe that their support for Remain was ever anything more than tribal.

I think it's also very easy to understand why some people voted Leave when you look at the way some politicians have addressed people's concerns about Self ID. Patronising, but also completely clueless.

I’d replace racism with sexism and empire with purity spiralling/virtue signalling/jostling for moral high ground.

Mmm, see I think the virtue signalling, 'only a racist would vote for Brexit' came from the Remain side, actually. And the idea that if only the Brexiteers understood the arguments, they would vote Remain. Like the argument 'if you only met some nice trans people you would all change your minds'. I do think that too many on the Remain side saw their vote as the only morally virtuous choice.

And I say this as a Remainer who thought, and still thinks, that the UK would have done better to stay in the EU and worked with other countries to reform things from within.

The Triggernometry guys are interesting on this, actually. In 2016 they were staunchly Remain and couldn't understand why anyone would vote to Leave. Five years on, they seem to have a much more nuanced view of the issue.

Define arrogant.

I think you mean ignorant? (Except I'm not.)

Common confusion to conflate arrogance and ignorance, just like it's common to confuse sex, gender and science with ideology.

I think it's a bit like Brexit in that it's a huge and politically divisive subject that few saw coming fifteen years ago. Same with the 'with us or against us' rhetoric.
I think a better analogy is probably the other massive political upset of recent years: Trump.
There were huge numbers of women actively supporting Trump even after the 'grab em by the pussy' video came out and all the accusations of assault or rape. We saw a lot of people completely dismissing all of it and I really struggled to understand that. A few women, yes. The majority of women in the red states? It baffled me.
But now I'm seeing the same behaviour on the left. We see people completely waving away terrible policies like locking women in with convicted sex offenders which no one in their right mind would defend.
It seems there are a lot of people who will not only defend the indefensible but aggressively attack anyone who draws attention to it, simply because they'll defend anything, no matter how awful, if its coming from their own 'side'.
Trans activism is very much the Trumpism of the left imo.

@Hercisback

Remember all foetus start off female in the womb.

IF this is true, how does it explain transmen?

Mike drop.

I think the main similarity is the insistence on pretending things don't exist - sex, the Northern Ireland Border

Yes. Northern Ireland was a factor in my decision to vote Remain in the end. I was also worried about a few other things, some of which haven't come to pass and some of which still may, but the inability to get to grips with the question of NI annoyed me.

Also, the inability of the Brexit side to answer simple questions about how we were to leave the EU as well - that drove me towards Remain. That was something the Brexiteers had in common with the TRAs, actually - they just didn't have any consistent answers as to how they intended to do any of it (or what they planned to do about the Irish border).

I was also concerned about Gibraltar, but I think we've come up with some sort of fudge to deal with that?

[quote Cascascascas]@WarriorN

How rude. I am doctor.
You are clearly arrogant.[/quote]

Anyone gullible enough to believe this probably will fall for TWAW too!

Mmm, see I think the virtue signalling, 'only a racist would vote for Brexit' came from the Remain side, actually. And the idea that if only the Brexiteers understood the arguments, they would vote Remain. Like the argument 'if you only met some nice trans people you would all change your minds'. I do think that too many on the Remain side saw their vote as the only morally virtuous choice.

At one point I heard a woman who had a company selling health supplements complaining that she wouldn't be able to afford school fees if she couldn't import the ingredients after Brexit. She then suggested that people supported Brexit because they had bad diets. I think she was being interviewed because she was part of a group who wanted to show that women would be adversely affected by Brexit. As somebody who voted Remain, I heard her and though "So thats why people are voting to Leave".

She then suggested that people supported Brexit because they had bad diets.

That's an argument I hadn't heard before!

Brexit = Britain's history as an island nation on the edge of a large, often war-torn continent, its fraught relationship with near neighbour Ireland, its post-war recovery in terms of jobs, wealth distribution and bruised national pride, the changing face of the EU over the decades, the rise of other political units eg China and the shifting sands of global economics. Complex and intertwined issues.

Sex = Homo sapiens being a biologically dimorphic mammal. Mammals can't change sex. Nothing complex to see here.

[quote Cascascascas]@LaetitiaASD

Not atall.

Trans people just want to accepted as the gender they are. Remember all foetus start off female in the womb.

They don’t want it be victimised.

All women want to be safe.

Brexit was a lie sold buy ignorant toffs to gullible people with a horrid hint of money racism and past glory of empire[/quote]
All fetus's do not start off as female as sex is determined by your genetics. Male fetus's are XY from conception.

Even if you had not made a basic scientific error, your comment is absolutely irrelevant unless you are willing to offer a definition of 'gender' - something no Trans activitist has ever been willing to do so far.

The fact that trans people don't want to be victimised is true and understandable, just completely irrelevant to the point and in no way an argument which suggests that we should pretend that people change sex or that sex is irrelevant.

Trans ideology is a lie sold to ignorant wokes who are more interestsed in virtue signalling and protecting a male elite than in creating true safety for everyone or addressing structural sexism.