Is the Trans Issue like Brexit?

[LaetitiaASD]

Brexit relied on being everything to as many people as possible. They never made any one specific promise, you could vote brexit if you hated immigration, or hated the alleged bureaucracy (it's not that big), of feared for an eu army, or turkey joining, or you wanted to wave a st george's cross or you hated political correctness etc etc.

TRAs are the same. They cannot actually specifically define what they believe or what they want. They rely 100% on vagueness and never actually saying anything concise and definitive.

Maybe this is obvious, but it just occurred to me.

we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.

But it isn't an inclusive statement.

What does 'women' mean in this context? Does 'women' mean: 'people who like pink things and are bad at parking'? By way of illustration, could the statement 'this part of the antenatal course is aimed at women and other birthing parents' be equally rendered 'this part of the antenatal course is aimed at those people who like pink things and are bad at parking, as well as other birthing parents'?

Presumably this would be viewed as a highly offensive explanation - so what is an alternative, non-offensive explanation for the word 'woman'?

I'm not ready to give up the battle over this.

Re Brexit - I disagree with the decision, but the country was entitled to vote a different way from me. It's a political decision - we're not tinkering with the basics of language.

@EdgeOfACoin

I don't think it's anything like Brexit.

There were very convincing arguments on both sides of the debate - the anti-democratic nature of the EU and the creeping encroachment of the CJEU for one thing, as well as the constant transfer of competencies from the individual member states to the EU to name a few of the more persuasive (to me) arguments on the Leave side. I voted Remain in the end, but I get sick of Leave voters being portrayed as ignorant, xenophobic thickos who were wholly driven by emotion. Some were, but most Remain voters I know couldn't tell you the first thing about how the EU worked either.

There aren't any convincing arguments on the pro-TRA side. It's purely led by emotion. They can't explain what makes an mtf transitioner a woman or an ftm transitioner a man. It's anti-science. Also, the EU as a concept is a political experiment. It doesn't depend on biological reality. If events had taken a different course (eg no Treaty of Rome in the fifties) the EU wouldn't even exist.

Also, we actually got a debate on Brexit! People were allowed to discuss the issue! So unlike this topic.

I don't see many (if any) parallels at all.

Agreed. I voted Remain but I am absolutely fed up of the polarisation of Remainers being on the side of the angels and Brexiteers being ignorant racists.

@Brefugee
If I may answer our points;

I would have voted remain (but not allowed to vote) but now Brexit is the reality we all have to make sure that it works, because the alternative is too awful. So it is fine to say that you prefer to be in the EU, but confronted with the reality of Brexit we need solutions that work within the framework of the fact that Britain is no longer in the EU.

Terrific points and attitude.

With Trans issues, I feel pretty much the same. The genie is not going back in the bottle, and the reality of our lives is that there are trans people

No one is suggesting trans people dont exist and the repitition of this lie is suggesting that you either have not engaged in this debate much or are being disengenious in your agrements.

and they are people who should have human rights afforded to them the same as anyone else.
Please outline any rights trans people dont have? and also please show any GC point that argues to remove any right that everyone has from trans people. Ta

So you many not believe TWAW but the fact is that they are here and we have to find the least damaging way forward.

This statement is disengenious as it conflates two things that are in fact seperate, in an attempt to make the forced subdigation of women seem reasonable. What this statement infact says is that women will just have to 'enjoy your erasure' and the erasure of our right to safety and full human diginity. The least damaging way forward would be third spaces, something GC women have been arguing for for as long as this debate has been going on.
For the record, feminists have always known that misogny is rampent in society, so none of this is in fact new.

So - and i agree that there are a lot of things that need to be sorted out and clarified - we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.
From this statement is seems the only things that needs to be sorted out are the compromises that women will be forced to make, nice bit of misogny there. And happy that we are included in our own catogory of human? thats quite a thing to be forced to accept, no?

That is not to say that i don't think that there is a need for single-sex spaces, because clearly many people want them. But we have to find a way forward because how things are now is clearly not acceptable to many people.

'Things as they are* I am assuming you mean things like rape crisis centers and womens prisons only holding women. The idea that there are hords of the population who are upset that men are not in womens prisons, sports and shelters is more TRA nonesense.

Things as they are is the mess we have where nobody is actually applying any common sense. Some of the self-IDd-women who have been put in women's prisons, clearly shouldn't have been. That is down purely to people not applying common sense when incarcerating them. And so on. That is the situation that is not acceptable to me - the simple application of common sense.

I'm not keen on Self-ID because i don't see the current regulation as too onerous to someone who really wants to change their gender. If you want to be a woman, living demonstrably as a woman (which involves changing your name and telling people she/her etc, as far as i can see and doesn't include wearing dresses and not being able to park) for 2 years isn't something that reasonable people kick against.

And this is where the TRAs come in - reasonable people understand what it is that women are complaining about. Unreasonable people are louder. Kind of like the louder Brexiters going on about "blue passports innit" and Remainers apparently calling all brexit voters racist idiots. Pandering to extremes isn't being inclusive, it is being daft.

I am always for a pragmatic approach that does least harm. Saying TWAW doesn't erase women. It does include a very small subset of people who weren't born women. And if people apply common sense, they will realise that TW have been using female-only spaces for yonks. TRAs have suddenly muscled in on this, and that is clearly an issue for everyone.

So the human rights i expect to be applied to everyone is the application of common sense, and a way forward that hears all opinions and then takes the best way forward. And the best way forward might be being more inclusive, it might be something else. But it doesn't have to include anyone's erasure. It certainly shouldn't be willy-nilly doing what the loudest squeaky wheel wants every time.

The two transwomen i have known quietly went on with their lives for years and a lot of people didn't even realise they weren't born as women. The idea that they should suddenly be forced to use a men's toilet after 30 years using the women's is daft. And dangerous (for them). They are not the issue.

So again to compare to Brexit - it is the extreme positions that keep the fight going and making it nearly impossible for a pragmatic, democratic way forward.

No the men put in womens prisons is down to the policy of putting men in womens prisons. There was no mistake about it, its what is says on the tin. I dont know why anyone is pretending otherwise.

Also men in dresses uding mens loos are not in any more danger from men than any other man. Lets stick to facts.

I find the idea that we can’t tell TW from bio women in the flesh to be untrue. Women are very good at recognising male bodies. No matter what surgery a TW has had they cannot change their height, the size of their hands & feet, the breadth of their shoulders or the width of their pelvis. Some TW have indeed been using womens spaces for years but that first Jean women were ok with that because bluntly we were never asked. Women are socialised to 1. Be kind and 2. Be aware that men can be dangerous. The reason women in the past haven’t challenged “old style” TW in our suaves is because we were being nice and keeping ourselves safe not because we necessarily were happy with them being there

First Jean = didn’t mean (fucking autocorrect)

if you willfully don't want to understand that a transwoman who appears to pretty much everyone in the universe to be a woman should be using the men's loo instead of the women's, as they have been for years, we aren't getting any further in this discussion. I think that is unreasonable to expect.

The men in women's prisons is due to an application on the part of the prison service of self-ID as i understood it (i could be remembering wrongly) since self-ID is not yet law in the uk and a GRC would be required.

I believe that people like Karen White and Jessica Yaniv are dangerous to women for sure. And i believe that the courts in Canada at least are starting to wake up to the latter. Not before harm has been done, of course, but they are waking up.

They are the extremes. There are transwomen, and transmen, who go about their everyday lives in peace and harmony and are equally disturbed at the extremes.

Also men in dresses uding mens loos are not in any more danger from men than any other man. Lets stick to facts.

I suspect they are generally in more danger than other men. In the same way that gay or effeminate men (or men who are perceived to be gay) are in more danger.

In the UK being trans identified is the safest demographic there is. Which is a really good thing, we can all agree on that at least?

I find the idea that we can’t tell TW from bio women in the flesh to be untrue.

For many that is true. However i have been in the presence of several butch lesbians (their description) who have had nightclub security called on them for using the women's toilets. Short of dropping their pants (one did offer) it was difficult to tell.

Tbh - i am in favour of single cubicle, floor to ceiling doors, with sinks, for everyone.

@Brefugee
why are third spaces so anathma to the cause?

i have no idea since i am not pushing any cause. I think third spaces seems, to me at least, a great way of making sure that single sex spaces are available. So we actually probably need 4 spaces since transmen might want one too?

Have any of you been to a German swimming pool recently? Indoor type? The one i have been using for 25 years has a massive changing area with cubicles (not floor to ceiling) and you go in, pick a cubicle, lock it, get changed, put your clothes in a locker and go to the (single sex) shower, then to the pool.

There are no separate changing areas and it's fine afaik. Certainly the one i use has had no problems.

Oh pleasssse, not the butch lesbians!

I am an older gender nonconforming woman who (clap) has (clap) never (clap) in (clap) my (clap) life (clap) EVER seen or had any trouble in a ladies loo.

I hate that clapping thing btw, but it somehow seems appropriate in this case.

Also appolgs to Brefugee if I'm piucking on you, I dont mean to, its just we've heard all these arguements a hundred times.
How about explaining what exactly a 'gender' is? or how allowning men in to womens single sex spaces will not be used by abusers?

I am an older gender nonconforming woman who (clap) has (clap) never (clap) in (clap) my (clap) life (clap) EVER seen or had any trouble in a ladies loo.

good for you. I was in the army and there was often problems around using the ladies (and not all of it related to how they looked).

But you go ahead and deny other women's experiences

The point i was making is that there are occasions when it has been REALLY difficult to tell if someone is one gender or another.

In the UK being trans identified is the safest demographic there is. Which is a really good thing, we can all agree on that at least?

In what way are they the safest demographic? The crime data is so messed up now. I'm assuming that one of the downsides of not recording accurate data in relation to crime statistics is that not only do male crimes get attributed to women, but also where trans people are the victims of crime is it even recorded accurately? I'm not sure that crime data can be trusted at all any more. (not that you have linked to any)

Agree about how crime stats are a mess now but, happly there have been zero murders of trans people in the UK for at least two years. Whicih I am happy about. I hope one day we can say the same for women.

How about explaining what exactly a 'gender' is? or how allowning men in to womens single sex spaces will not be used by abusers?

i have also REPEATEDLY said - until I'm blue in the face - that i am COMPLETELY OVER gender and gender stereotypes because i simply can not care about it. I really don't give a flying fuck if someone "feels girly" and equates that with butterflies and pink fairy wings, even if they are the size of a prop forward with a beard like gandalf. Because i have spent my ENTIRE life being told "that's not ladylike" when I've wanted to do things. And i have ignored it because, fuck that shit.

I do have concerns about single sex spaces, as i have equally repeated often enough, and i am fully supportive of single sex spaces so that everyone can use, say, the changing room, that they are comfortable in without making others feel unsafe.

(incidentally, i have been beaten up exactly twice. Once was a man. One was a - self-proclaimed - butch lesbian corporal because i asked her girlfriend for a light. So I'm an equal opportunities victim here. I have no axe to grind. )

I'm not sure that crime data can be trusted at all any more. (not that you have linked to any)

agree and i think that sex disaggregated data on everything would make the world a much better, safer place.

Glad to hear you are supportive of third spaces, thats great.

I know I have not lived an espicially closetted existance, so the idea that women are routinely or even sometimes violent to each other (or anyone else) is just not the experiance of myself or anyone else I know irl. It just isen't. And crime stats, dodgy tho they are, reflect this reality.
Female violent behaviour is very rare, and almost always linked to an endevour with men.

@Brefugee

if you willfully don't want to understand that a transwoman who appears to pretty much everyone in the universe to be a woman should be using the men's loo instead of the women's, as they have been for years, we aren't getting any further in this discussion. I think that is unreasonable to expect.

The men in women's prisons is due to an application on the part of the prison service of self-ID as i understood it (i could be remembering wrongly) since self-ID is not yet law in the uk and a GRC would be required.

I believe that people like Karen White and Jessica Yaniv are dangerous to women for sure. And i believe that the courts in Canada at least are starting to wake up to the latter. Not before harm has been done, of course, but they are waking up.

They are the extremes. There are transwomen, and transmen, who go about their everyday lives in peace and harmony and are equally disturbed at the extremes.

So all transwomen are equal but some are more equal than others?

Again, I understand what you're saying (quietly living TWs for 30 years, always used the women's facilities without apparent issue etc).
You say that some people are dangerous to women, but how do we decide what ones? If TW are women because they SAY they are, with no other qualifier needed, how do we police that?
What level of transness does it take to be a 'real' trans?
Again, not expecting an answer from you personally but this is the kind of issue it throws up, when you think some people are 'real' trans and others are not.
Third spaces are absolutely needed, but again, most TWs would use the ladies bathroom as that's the whole point for them. They think they are women. Some would not want to 'out' themselves in public by using that facility. Some need the validation using the female spaces brings. So we would still be having this discussion.

Agree about how crime stats are a mess now but, happly there have been zero murders of trans people in the UK for at least two years. Whicih I am happy about. I hope one day we can say the same for women

Yes it's certainly good news that trans women are not being murdered in the UK at least. But I'm not sure that this equates to them being the safest demographic whilst using public spaces on a day to day basis. I agree that we need to stick to the facts, I just don't think that this is one of them.

So all transwomen are equal but some are more equal than others?

a transwoman who passes as a woman will be in danger using the men's toilets.

And as a woman who has had her fair share (if that's the word) of violence by men I agree that it is not always easy to tell who the dangerous ones are. And so i am fine with 3rd spaces (or as i said before 4th spaces because transmen so often get left out here - or are there zero issues around transmen using men only spaces?)

It is clear from this and all the other discussions that there are no clear-cut answers. And it's becoming clearer that there are no answers that will suit everyone.

So I really do believe that some small compromises are the way to move forward. And that might be 3rd (and 4th?) spaces so that we can ensure that those who need single-sex spaces for whatever reason can be and feel safe. But i would also like some recognition of the very real fear that some people have that simple self-id might lead to some men invading women's spaces because it makes it too easy for them. (and the argument that men can do that anyway is valid, but misses the point). And i know that makes me "the enemy" in a lot of trans-advocate's eyes but it is something that i feel strongly about.

We should all feel safe. And that goes for women, and trans women alike. If anything we should be learning from the Brexit shitshow that obfuscation and not being clear about possible outcomes can only lead to more problems not fewer.