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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

14th October 'Nolan Investigates' podcast - Stonewall?

729 replies

Helleofabore · 13/10/2021 11:11

This sounds interesting.

A special ‘Nolan Investigates’ podcast drops tomorrow afternoon on @BBCSounds. An 18 month investigation into the influence of a lobby group on public bodies throughout the UK. More details in the morning

It seems to be about Stonewall.

Anyone know more about it?

There is some chatter about it on Twitter.

twitter.com/stephennolan/status/1448052827088109568?s=21

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1448205588253618176?s=21

(Tweet from JCJ says:

Okay, at last, here it is.

The BBC Ulster documentary on the influence of Stonewall on public life in the UK.

Many GC women have been interviewed for this.

Let's take the lid off this thing shall we?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Mrsjamin · 18/10/2021 09:44

If anyone needs any further example of someone (also white, born male) that's non-binary listen to Fearne Cotton's podcast Happy Place with 'non binary Drag Queen' Bimini Bon Boulash. OMG. Fearne - if you're reading this, stop pandering to the "be kind" narrative and learn for yourself that 'gender fluidity' does not mean that there aren't males and females any more and that women don't need single sex spaces.

MinervaBoudicca · 18/10/2021 10:05

It’s encouraging young people to live in their heads, ignoring the materiality of their lives.

In that sense, ‘gender identity’ is a fantasy project; if you’re a young girl, your changing body, periods, sexual harassment etc etc are real. But this advice keeps you in your head.

I think it’s so interesting how anti-therapy this whole ‘gender affirming’ shebang is: it’s as if they want to keep kids locked into fantasy/feelings of disembodiment/alienation etc, the very things good therapy or counselling can help with.

Artichokeleaves · 18/10/2021 10:27

Also worth stating: the whole thought experiment about 'waking up in a different body' - it doesn't happen. It's science fiction. Fantasy.

The known human experience is a sudden shift in functionality of a familiar body - and it involves accepting and working with that change to be mentally healthy and functional. Whether it's that you've suddenly acquired big breasts as a young girl, you've lost a limb, you've had a stroke.

That's different to perceiving the reality of your body as different to your internal self perception, such as conviction that your body is fat when it's dangerously underweight, or a limb does not belong to you. These are mental health based challenges.

Humans don't wake up as a living soul inside a body they have never been in before. That assumes for a start that such a living 'self' exists separately of the body, which is a quasi religious belief. It's an episode of Star Trek, not reality.

NecessaryScene · 18/10/2021 10:28

I think it’s so interesting how anti-therapy this whole ‘gender affirming’ shebang is: it’s as if they want to keep kids locked into fantasy/feelings of disembodiment/alienation etc, the very things good therapy or counselling can help with.

Yep. Here's Helen Joyce talking about it:

In any other culture and time, nobody would have said, "Ah, you're probably of the opposite sex inside". Because that's a crazy thing to say. But it's now such a powerful narrative, that you don't even need to go to the doctor to get it.

That's another thing, of course, it's not just that we all live online, it's that ideas are spread online. So a child who - as many, many children do at 12, 13, 14 - feels profoundly wrong about themselves: you go and you type out "Why do I feel so terrible? Why do i feel different from everybody else?"

Loads of people feel like that. It might just be ordinary teenage angst but, you know ,you might actually be on the autistic spectrum, you know, loads of things. You might have been abused as a child and this is why you've dissociated from your body. Loads of reasons. But anyway, the answer you will find is "you might be trans". And the advice you'll be given is to meditate on your gender, to think about it all the time, like ALL the time.

There's no better advice for making somebody mentally distressed than to get them to ruminate about what they're mentally distressed about. It's the opposite of CBT; it's the opposite of what's wise, I understand.

JurassickJay · 18/10/2021 10:59

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BoreOfWhabylon · 18/10/2021 11:05

Such interesting posts. Thank you.

Sophoclesthefox · 18/10/2021 13:03

The thought experiment of “what if I woke up in a different body?” isn’t even original.

All of these ideas about souls and inner essences and cognition have been explored ad infitium by philosophers from the Plato to Descartes and onwards, and while much of interest has been theorised, not once in the history of that exploration has the definitive answer ever been “the way to happiness and fulfilment is to discard and ignore physical reality and exist as if your ideas form the only reality”.

And it still isn’t now. Cogito ergo sum, maybe, but that doesn’t make physical reality disappear, and if you didn’t have a physical brain to do the cogitating, there wouldn’t be a you to exist.

NecessaryScene · 18/10/2021 13:31

All of these ideas about souls and inner essences and cognition have been explored ad infitium by philosophers from the Plato to Descartes and onwards

I know. Some of this stuff I listen to and think "the ancient Greeks used to stuff people in barrels for coming up with this shit". Or maybe I'm confused about the details.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/10/2021 13:34

"The wrong body" narrative offends me greatly.

My dear friend has spina bifida. She will never walk or have bowel control.

Was she born in the wrong body too? Or does her body just bring challenges to her life because society doesn't accommodate her needs?

Gender is just an inner sense that fucking rude, ablest, sexist, homophobic, self obsessed people have.

LobsterNapkin · 18/10/2021 13:50

@drwitch

I'm remember waking up in a different body, I was thirteen year walking to school and for the first time every fourth or so car would beep at me. Suddenly I no longer looked like a little girl. Its called adolescence and the issue is not gender dysmorphia but a society that treats women as sexual objects
I don't even think this is just about that.

The changing body in adolescence can make people feel like they are in a body they don't recognize. It's a weird feeling. And for that matter I've heard elderly people describing something similar, or women after pregnancy. But they are older and better able to integrate it (though we now try and cover the normal effects of age, almost without thinking about it, too.)

For adolescent girls though, even if they were in a non-sexist environment, the sexual element can be disconcerting. It's just factually true that puberty means we cease to be a child who reads as asexual to being someone with mature secondary sexual characteristics. And people of the opposite sex notice this, because as we all know we are just very attuned to that.

It's perfectly normal for a young woman to feel really uncomfortable and conflicted about that, even under the best circumstances. Our creepy sexual culture just makes it all that more confusing, talk about a lot of mixed messages.

HipTightOnions · 18/10/2021 16:19

The thought experiment of “what if I woke up in a different body?” isn’t even original.

It also doesn’t go far enough. If I “woke up in a different body” the “true me inside” would presumably consist of a lifetime’s memories of living in a female body.

To make the thought experiment marginally less stupid I would have to imagine I woke up in a man’s body and virtually all my memories had been erased. Would I somehow still know I was supposed to be a woman? No, I don’t suppose I would.

BreadInCaptivity · 18/10/2021 18:07

Daily Mail has picked this up today:

How Stonewall influenced the BBC
mol.im/a/10103115

borntobequiet · 18/10/2021 18:54

@JurassickJay

I suppose when you've grown up amidst the Troubles in Belfast, a few online trolls posting cartoon guns aren't terribly frightening.
And there’s a level of informed political debate in NI that really doesn’t exist in England, at least.
borntobequiet · 18/10/2021 18:55

Not sure how that applies to Scotland, well and truly captured despite the Independence issue.

JurassickJay · 18/10/2021 19:07

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OperationDessertStorm · 18/10/2021 21:13

[quote BreadInCaptivity]Daily Mail has picked this up today:

How Stonewall influenced the BBC
mol.im/a/10103115[/quote]
That’s a smashing article!

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 18/10/2021 22:30

I haven't quite finished the podcast but the other thing that has struck me is the difference between Benjamin Cohen and David Bell.

From Cohen there is so much 'well, it can be difficult to explain but.......' and 'well, different people define in different ways but.....' and 'I get what you are saying but ' and 'i can't speak for everyone but I think it's.....' and just so much umming and ahhhhhing, trying to deflect from the point.

David Bell never falters. He is totally confident in absolutely everything he is saying. It is abundantly clear that he knows his shit and would be able to defend what he is saying all day long.

ChristmasPlanning · 18/10/2021 22:44

Just finished episode 10. Is there more to come? I still have so many unanswered questions and frustrations at the BBC & governments refusing to be interviewed!

ChristmasPlanning · 18/10/2021 22:46

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I haven't quite finished the podcast but the other thing that has struck me is the difference between Benjamin Cohen and David Bell.

From Cohen there is so much 'well, it can be difficult to explain but.......' and 'well, different people define in different ways but.....' and 'I get what you are saying but ' and 'i can't speak for everyone but I think it's.....' and just so much umming and ahhhhhing, trying to deflect from the point.

David Bell never falters. He is totally confident in absolutely everything he is saying. It is abundantly clear that he knows his shit and would be able to defend what he is saying all day long.

Absolutely agree.

Did you know Ben is an employer!?Wink Loved when he presumed he was the only employee in the conversation. Interesting he never presumes anyone's chromosomes but he will presume whether they are an employer or not

nauticant · 18/10/2021 23:17

More nonsene on BBC South Today this evening, with a female Southamption fan speaking about anti-racist messages was describes as (name) 'who identifies as LGBT.'

This makes me optimistic. The activists have broadened the term so much it isn't much use and now it's being adopted as something indistinguishable from a lifestyle label. Keep up this drift into meaninglessness and eventually gay people will start looking for alternative terms which are distinctive and comprehensible.

SteakExpectations · 18/10/2021 23:21

I’m just quickly de-lurking to say that I am so grateful for this board. I first stumbled across it when I saw the thread “I stand with JK Rowling” and you have opened my eyes so much. I’m so grateful for women like JKR and those on these boards for giving women like me a voice. Not just for me and women and girls everywhere, but also for our sons who also have to navigate this shit show world.

Alektopteryx · 18/10/2021 23:56

Stephen Nolan has tweeted his thanks for all the positive comments, which is lovely.

Here's a link to send your thoughts in:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments-feedback/#/Your%20comment

"The Nolan team deals with hard politics on a daily basis & so we are used to complaints
People are entitled to complain about the pod -many have

But the many hundreds of messages to the BBC thanking us for this pod is something we are not used to

@dt_ni & I are very grateful"

14th October 'Nolan Investigates' podcast - Stonewall?
MinervaBoudicca · 19/10/2021 05:17

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I haven't quite finished the podcast but the other thing that has struck me is the difference between Benjamin Cohen and David Bell.

From Cohen there is so much 'well, it can be difficult to explain but.......' and 'well, different people define in different ways but.....' and 'I get what you are saying but ' and 'i can't speak for everyone but I think it's.....' and just so much umming and ahhhhhing, trying to deflect from the point.

David Bell never falters. He is totally confident in absolutely everything he is saying. It is abundantly clear that he knows his shit and would be able to defend what he is saying all day long.

The episode with Dr Bell nearly had me in tears. His wisdom and his courage.
ScreamingMeMesaur · 19/10/2021 07:32

@SteakExpectations

I’m just quickly de-lurking to say that I am so grateful for this board. I first stumbled across it when I saw the thread “I stand with JK Rowling” and you have opened my eyes so much. I’m so grateful for women like JKR and those on these boards for giving women like me a voice. Not just for me and women and girls everywhere, but also for our sons who also have to navigate this shit show world.
Welcome, Steak. Great username Grin
Blessex · 19/10/2021 07:55

@Alektopteryx thanks for the link. Have sent positive feedback also asking for this to now get great reach, a more balanced coverage inviting key women on now to defend their positions and counter the slander and how brave the BBC are to do this given they are investigating themselves and I respect them even more for that.