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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Legal rights of gender dysphoric yr 8 boy to be placed in a girls dorm

293 replies

PrawnQuaver · 12/10/2021 07:13

Please could anyone help me understand the legal rights involved in the situation of a private school placing a gender dysphoric year 8 boy, who is currently identifying as female, into a girls dorm on school residential trip without consulting the parents of the three other girls in that dorm or asking the girls themselves?
The 10 protected characteristics of the 2010 Gender Equality Act have been quoted as cast iron justification but I don't know enough about it to provide a strong counter argument.

I've name changed for this post but am a long time mumsnetter

OP posts:
MonsignorMirth · 27/11/2021 00:19

@RobinMoiraWhite

Regrettably, as a ‘Guide’ produced by two organisations with a particular ‘take’ on the issues, it misrepresents the law and could cause considerable difficulties for schools if implemented.

School children can indeed have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if they have embarked on a profess or part of a process for reassigning sex. Changing clothes, features such as hairstyle or name used are perfectly sufficient to qualify.

Much of the opinion expressed in this thread so far is not based on firm legal grounds.

You may not like what the law is, but it is the law.

Please could someone explain to me what 'hairstyle' has to do with someone's gender? Time and time again we are told on one hand gender is an innate thing and nothing to do with appearance, and on the other hand that appearance can signify gender. Are they linked and if so, how? Is one's appearance, and the extent to which it might be seen as masculine or feminine, not more to do with sex stereotypes than gender?

or.... is that what gender is?

I know I won't get an answer. It's just bizarre how often the contradictions spring up and aren't addressed.

And why is 'reassigning sex' to do with gender reassignment? Sex is your physical body - it's the gender that is being discussed in the OP? Yet Robin uses the two interchangeably in the second sentence there?

PepplesCat · 27/11/2021 00:30

RobinMoiraWhite

I think that you may have had a hand in creating the document below, in which case you will be well aware that many of your colleagues differ in their interpretation of the EA2010, both in terms of its definitions and, particularly, the correct comparator in cases of discrimination of those with the protected characteristics of gender reassignment.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/17849/html/

Given that paper, I'm sure you don't mean to imply that this is is settled law (at all, but certainly not in the way you might wish).

The implications of that uncertainty for the scenario in the OP are quite striking in that there is most likely no course of action open to the school that could give them an acceptable degree of comfort that they were acting on the right side of the legislation. At some point I expect there to be a high profile case resulting in clear, binding precedent, (most likely, regrettably, based on a serious incident of some kind).

Given it may well be sued either way, if the school's policy decision lay with me, I would be inclined to step back from a black letter legal debate at that point and take such of some wider considerations, including:
a) the weight of the increased risk of (i) sexual activity / assault / rape / pregnancy to which the school was exposing young girls in its care as against (ii) emotional upset of a transgirl being refused access to the sleeping quarters of those girls; and
b) the relative impacts on reputation of the school should one of the 12/13 year old girls in fact engaging in sexual activity or being assaulted/raped/impregnated by a transgirl (assuming - generously - that to be the pupil in question's genuinely felt identity) following the school's decision to allow a transgirl into the single sex sleeping area (and without informing parents) vs being sued by a trans pupil for discrimination in refusing their accommodation request.

Test cases remain to be heard, of course, but I know which position I, as a school, would rather be defending from!

334bu · 27/11/2021 00:37

Test cases remain to be heard, of course, but I know which position I, as a school, would rather be defending from!

In the interim ,unfortunately, most schools will probably just stop all trips , where these problems might arise. Any teacher with a modicum of sense would not put themselves in the position of being responsible for such a trip.

allmywhat · 27/11/2021 00:46

What are the professional ethics around a barrister showing up in a forum thread where the OP is asking for advice and delivering their opinion on the relevant laws? Does it matter if the opinion is highly contestable?

Can someone explain, because I was under the impression this behaviour is not allowed.

SocialConnection · 27/11/2021 01:11

1/ Under the Equality Act, the female sex are allowed to be free from the male sex in vulnerable situations, such as while sleeping and showering.

Why does this signify here?

The child is a member of the male sex.

Being gender dysphoric does not signify sexuality.

A year 8 pupil aged 12-13 is capable of sexual assault and impregnation.

Therefore the Equality Act allows the school to refuse access to the girls' dorm.

2/ The Act does not cover gender, gender identity, self ID, etc. It only covers those who have had GR.

The child is too young to have had any gender reassignment surgery, therefore does not qualify under that characteristic.

The school should looking to what the Act actually says, and what it allows them to do.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/11/2021 10:04

@allmywhat

What are the professional ethics around a barrister showing up in a forum thread where the OP is asking for advice and delivering their opinion on the relevant laws? Does it matter if the opinion is highly contestable?

Can someone explain, because I was under the impression this behaviour is not allowed.

There must be a special dispensation. Cos Robin often pops in to correct, berate, educate us.

Often with a somewhat shaky grasp of, biased interpretation of, any law, guidance or ethical considerations being discussed.

Lovelyricepudding · 27/11/2021 11:41

The child is too young to have had any gender reassignment surgery, therefore does not qualify under that characteristic.

You don't need any surgery for qualifying under gender reassignment, just an intention. Therefore a boy who identifies as a girl does have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment and therefore should not be discriminated against compared to other BOYS without the protected characteristic.

OldCrone · 27/11/2021 12:33

Please could someone explain to me what 'hairstyle' has to do with someone's gender?

I recommend a read of Robin's blog about transitioning if you want to get a feel for why Robin thinks things like hairstyles and clothing are so important.

Not so long ago, trans people were very open about the importance to them of stereotypes as a reason for transitioning. When it was pointed out to them how offensive these stereotypes were to women, they gradually moved to the 'inner essence' argument, which is based on precisely nothing, so they tend to slip back into the stereotypes argument, which gets called out again as being sexist and offensive to women. Because even a feeling or inner essence has to be based on something different between the sexes, otherwise why is it called 'trans' rather than just personality?

MonsignorMirth · 27/11/2021 12:43

I used to think that being transgender was simply wanting to be the opposite sex, for whatever reason, to the extent that you change your appearance so that other people believe you to be/ treat you as the opposite sex.

I found out that was wrong a few years ago but now I'm not so sure? It makes way more sense to me than having to have an additional characteristic called gender which is indefinable yet apparently everyone has and you always are that gender from birth and it's completely separate from and more important than physical sex and both is and isn't to do with sex stereotypes or masculinity/ femininity depending on the situation?

happydappy2 · 27/11/2021 13:00

Wasn't Robins book factually incorrect so they had to re print some pages? I'd honestly take what they say with a pinch of salt. OF COURSE the yr 8 yr male child should NOT have been allowed to share sleeping accommodation with girls. This leaves the school wide open for complaints from girls and parents. Where is the risk assessment? What if other boys claim they are being discriminated against as they can't also share the girls sleeping accommodation? The law may be unclear in this area but the safety of ALL children is the responsibility of the Head Teacher/Board of governors. Definitely take this further OP-good luck

Clymene · 27/11/2021 17:58

Here's an excellent review of Robin's book from the reliably excellent Legal Feminist: legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/09/02/a-practical-guide/

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 27/11/2021 19:41

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

IgnesFauti

I mean, I wasn't sexually active until 15/16 etc as were most of my peers, but it's not unheard of.

Seeing as you have brought it up, I remember from another thread that you are a transwoman with a wife, i.e. married to a female spouse.

Hugoslavia's post gave me the impression that she thought transwomen were attracted to males, and that she thought those not attracted to men were perhaps not genuinely trans.

Would you like to confirm that transwomen are individuals and they may be attracted to males, females or both sexes?

Isn't it something that a person with no experience at all of being a female teenager - none of female socialisation, or of having to navigate life in a developing female body - should presume to drop their own (male) experiences into a discussion mostly about the sexual activity (or not) of teenage/pre teen girls, as if they had any relevance at all.

It’s almost like that person really doesn’t want to acknowledge the enormous difference in experience in this area between a teenage girl and a teenage boy. The differences in physiology, in developmental changes, in societal messages directed to/received by the two sexes.

Astonishing.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/11/2021 19:59

I'm always Shock at any adult who voices the opinion that girls are not allowed boundaries from the opposite sex - especially in relation to activities like undressing, showering and sleeping in a communal area.
What on earth are they thinking?

AlwaysLatte · 27/11/2021 20:01

8 year old? It's not an issue at this age, surely.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/11/2021 20:05

@AlwaysLatte

8 year old? It's not an issue at this age, surely.
Year 8 is the second year of secondary school.
Agrona · 27/11/2021 22:07

[quote Clymene]Here's an excellent review of Robin's book from the reliably excellent Legal Feminist: legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/09/02/a-practical-guide/[/quote]
Thank you for that link. It is very interesting and clear.

RobinMoiraWhite · 27/11/2021 22:55

@PepplesCat

RobinMoiraWhite

I think that you may have had a hand in creating the document below, in which case you will be well aware that many of your colleagues differ in their interpretation of the EA2010, both in terms of its definitions and, particularly, the correct comparator in cases of discrimination of those with the protected characteristics of gender reassignment.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/17849/html/

Given that paper, I'm sure you don't mean to imply that this is is settled law (at all, but certainly not in the way you might wish).

The implications of that uncertainty for the scenario in the OP are quite striking in that there is most likely no course of action open to the school that could give them an acceptable degree of comfort that they were acting on the right side of the legislation. At some point I expect there to be a high profile case resulting in clear, binding precedent, (most likely, regrettably, based on a serious incident of some kind).

Given it may well be sued either way, if the school's policy decision lay with me, I would be inclined to step back from a black letter legal debate at that point and take such of some wider considerations, including:
a) the weight of the increased risk of (i) sexual activity / assault / rape / pregnancy to which the school was exposing young girls in its care as against (ii) emotional upset of a transgirl being refused access to the sleeping quarters of those girls; and
b) the relative impacts on reputation of the school should one of the 12/13 year old girls in fact engaging in sexual activity or being assaulted/raped/impregnated by a transgirl (assuming - generously - that to be the pupil in question's genuinely felt identity) following the school's decision to allow a transgirl into the single sex sleeping area (and without informing parents) vs being sued by a trans pupil for discrimination in refusing their accommodation request.

Test cases remain to be heard, of course, but I know which position I, as a school, would rather be defending from!

I am entirely prepared to engage in the controversies and uncertainties in this area - as my name at the end of the document indicates, and if you read the book of which I am a joint author, you would discover. Some individuals, who are very loud on this subject, removed themselves from that nuanced document and fail to engage with the complexities and indeed loudly put forward their view, which is largely unsupported by practice or precedent. As you say, we will not achieve certainty without a few more test cases. But recent experience is that the exclusory view is struggling in the courts and tribunals: Taylor, Bell, AEA, and Forstater (which only succeeded in the EAT against a finding that she would respect other workers' identity in the workplace). The general view is represented by the recent BBC 'Womanhood' programme - the desire for a trans equivalent of s28 becomes all the more horrific the more plain it is made.
Lovelyricepudding · 27/11/2021 23:02

Forstater (which only succeeded in the EAT against a finding that she would respect other workers' identity in the workplace).

Forstater's case did not rule on this. It ruled that a belief that sex us important and immutable was a belief worthy of respect and also one that reflected the law.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 28/11/2021 00:37

What’s in it for women, RobinMoiraWhite?

I mean, many of us know why many women apparently support the inclusion of male people in women only spaces, services and set asides. It’s often fuelled by blissful ignorance, thinking that “transwoman” automatically means a same-sex attracted male with acute gender dysphoria who commits to all the surgery etc possible in order to blend in with women as fully as possible and live a quiet life.

And in the case of virtually all women, it’s the end result of that dratted female socialisation, drummed into us from birth and backed up by the weight of thousands of years of patriarchy, ie male domination and the female need to do whatever it takes to survive. That female socialisation which you had the great privilege of not being subjected to, and consequently no experience of how deep and toxic (and usually unconscious) it is.

So we know why there are apparently a lot of women eager to do what we’ve been taught from infancy we should do to survive: be kind, put the feelings and wishes of others (especially male others) first, abnegate ourselves. Squeeze ourselves into the smallest possible space, bend ourselves to accommodate those male people whose wishes, unlike ours, are entitled to be validated and supported.

But my question to you is: what do women actually get out of this? What do we gain for ourselves, apart from the sense that we’re doing what good, nice, kind, virtuous, self sacrificing women ought to do, behaving as men have always told us we ought to behave, and women who wanted to survive have told us too, which we hope will keep us safe in this misogynistic world we have the misfortune to inhabit? What do we get for us as individuals, as human beings in our own right?

How does all this opening up the things that have been set aside for us specifically as a way of redressing the injustices and abuses that we suffer and have suffered at the hands of the male sex to any members of the male sex who wish to have access to them as long as those male people utter the magic words that they now identify as women or girls - how does that benefit us?

How does it enhance our lives, increase our still relatively limited opportunities, give us increased protection from the endemic male VAWG we still live with? How does it help us find solidarity, solace and inspiration with each other, with other women who may have experienced similar things to us, who have suffered the same damaging effects of female socialisation and endured the same challenges of navigating our way through the world in a female body, the world designed by and for those with a male body?

How does it help us talk to each other, find our own voice, take up our own place in the world, take up the space that is owing to us, that has been stolen from us by men for generation upon generation, that is still being stolen from us now? When our spaces now include male people with an entirely different history, who are accustomed to their voices being heard in a way ours aren’t, who are more than happy to speak over us and silence us just as so many other male people have done for so long?

How does it help us feel good about ourselves as women in a world where being female has been consistently devalued throughout time and space, in every culture worldwide, where we have been and live with the legacy of being always the second sex, when even the word “woman” itself no longer belongs to us exclusively, but must be shared with those members of the first sex who wish to claim it, must be emptied of its original meaning to become instead a container for a male idea of what a woman is rather than the material reality of what we are?

How does any of that help or benefit us in any way?

What’s in it for us, Robin?

OldCrone · 28/11/2021 00:37

the desire for a trans equivalent of s28 becomes all the more horrific the more plain it is made.

Can you explain what you mean by this Robin? I'm struggling to see how this relates to the subject of this thread, which is about the legal issues involved when a boy is allowed to share a dormitory with girls on a school trip without the girls' parents being consulted.

What is the connection between a historic law forbidding the promotion of homosexuality and a situation in which parents of girls are not told that their daughters will be sleeping in a mixed sex dormitory on a school trip?

LittleEsme · 28/11/2021 07:33

@Hugoslavia

To counter some of the fear, if he is genuinely identifying as female (and it's not just some recent fad), then the chances are that he would be attracted to boys, not girls. And, I would have thought that most Yr 8 girls wouldn't wish to have sex in the first place, much less in front of their friends and the chances of them being attracted to a boy who identifies as a girl would be even less so. Secondly, the child in question is unlikely to be a rapist any more than anyone's teenage Yr 8 son. Therefore, in the highly unlikely scenario of a girl finding herself pregnant, I would suggest that it would be most likely consensual. Therefore that might be something to discuss before going on any residential trip as there will also be opportunities for them to mingle/socialise with the opposite sex in any event in some hidden corner or other. That said, I can understand some girls feeling awkward about getting dressed etc in a room with a trans child, although I suspect that it is much more awkward for the trans child themselves. Personally, I would talk to the school and ask them what measures they put in place generally during a trip to ensure the safety of kids. You may find that a teacher sleeps in one of the dorms anyway.
No, teaching staff do not sleep in dorms! Do you not understand the concept of safeguarding?! Dear god.

I run residential trips (pre-covid) and am in charge of writing risk assessments. Part of that is to identify all possible risk situations and put in measures to prevent that.

Can I repeat, all possible risk situations.

In this instance, I'd request to see a copy, then request a meeting with the adult in charge of writing it.
I'm getting it would have more holes than a colander.

LittleEsme · 28/11/2021 07:35

@RedDogsBeg

Jesus Christ, where to even start with this load of shit?

Perfectly put Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet.

Actually, yes. Just yes.
Doubletoilandtrouble · 28/11/2021 08:14

Interesting that the people arguing for this year 8 biological male to sleep in the same dorm as the girls also lack even the most basic knowledge of safeguarding….

caringcarer · 28/11/2021 09:02

I would remove my dd from this school.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 28/11/2021 09:06

@Lovelyricepudding

Forstater (which only succeeded in the EAT against a finding that she would respect other workers' identity in the workplace).

Forstater's case did not rule on this. It ruled that a belief that sex us important and immutable was a belief worthy of respect and also one that reflected the law.

Amazing isn't it?

Many if us followed Maya's case very closely. We know what the ruling was, which parts annoyed us, which parts we rejoiced in. We can acknowledge both the apparent losses and the apparent wins.

And yet still the findings are reflected back at us through a prism of fractious, disingenuous, disbelief.

Anyone who hasn't yet done so should read the book review in the link above. You don't have to know about the law, clarity of logic is easily read. Which is how you can often tell when someone trying to misinform is posting. The logic gets torturous.