Legal rights of gender dysphoric yr 8 boy to be placed in a girls dorm

[PrawnQuaver]

Please could anyone help me understand the legal rights involved in the situation of a private school placing a gender dysphoric year 8 boy, who is currently identifying as female, into a girls dorm on school residential trip without consulting the parents of the three other girls in that dorm or asking the girls themselves?
The 10 protected characteristics of the 2010 Gender Equality Act have been quoted as cast iron justification but I don't know enough about it to provide a strong counter argument.

I've name changed for this post but am a long time mumsnetter

@Doubletoilandtrouble

Wow, are we gatekeeping trans here as well? If a biological male who identifies as a girl isn’t attracted to boys, then they are not “real trans”? This is transphobic I think, assuming someone’s sexuality based on trans identity. And it is really homophobic as well.

And “the child is unlikely to be a rapist”. Is that like that gender fluid penis person who anally raped a girl in the girls toilets? I think the school thought that was unlikely as well. In fact they thought it so unlikely that the penis person got a second shot at sexual assault.

I don’t know where to start with the suggestion that “year 8 girls don’t want to have sex anyway” and “probably a teacher will be sleeping in the dorm”. I assume you don’t work in safeguarding?

Well some are definitely gatekeeping what girls are allowed this think and feel.

Do try to remember that the trans person does not exist in a vacuum.

That seems to be the difference between many TRAs and GCfeminists. One group just can't imagine the possibility of harm being done by being so nice and inclusive.

The other group know what safeguarding is.

Sorry Robin. We have discussed how flawed your understanding of the EA2010 is before.

@Hugoslavia

Wow, I knew there would be some hatred and ignorance in some of these responses, but even by MN standards...

I put across a fairly reasonable middle of the road view point and got told to 'fuck off'!! If that's the level of aggression that people stoop to today, rather than have a reasoned discussion, it's unsurprising that there is so much vitriol in the world!

I won't be responding further. I won't stoop to that level.

Can you answer the question I asked, very politely, very civilly?

What's in it for the girls?

What benefit is it to them?

Hugoslavia - I put across a fairly reasonable middle of the road view point

One that put girls at the back of the queue again in favour of boys, no consideration for the girls at all, just a mere acceptance that they might feel awkward immediately countered by but what about the boy's feelings, they matter more an assumption of the sexual orientation of the boy (clearly not heard of transwomen declaring themselves lesbians and expecting lesbians to service them and their male genitalia) and a weak assurance that the boy in question wouldn't rape the girls.

Nothing reasonable about what you said at all, you put the boy before the girls, the girls need for safety, privacy, dignity and comfort comes a distant second.

As Datun said just admit that you think all males must have their needs met whatever the expense to females.

but what about the boy's feelings, they matter more

and if the boy was at all upset and concerned - either for their own sake or for the girls who weren't offered a choice about sharing sleeping accomodation with them - they had the option of asking for separate accommodation. The template "inclusion" policies that these schools follow specify that a trans-identifiying child has that choice.

This didn't happen so we can conclude that this teenager is at best indifferent to any reluctance on the part of the girls.

@RobinMoiraWhite

Regrettably, as a ‘Guide’ produced by two organisations with a particular ‘take’ on the issues, it misrepresents the law and could cause considerable difficulties for schools if implemented.

School children can indeed have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if they have embarked on a profess or part of a process for reassigning sex. Changing clothes, features such as hairstyle or name used are perfectly sufficient to qualify.

Much of the opinion expressed in this thread so far is not based on firm legal grounds.

You may not like what the law is, but it is the law.

The right to invoke single sex exceptions is also part of the law - even when an individual has a GRC, which this juvenile male certainly will not have, being under 18.

It is perfectly legal to make “an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services”.

The girls’ right to privacy and dignity and comfort is reason enough to exclude any and all (biologically) male people from shared sleeping accommodation. No law would be broken by doing that. And you have to ask yourself why some organisations are so busy telling schools (and other organisations) the opposite, especially when it comes to safeguarding vulnerable girls. (IMO girls of 12/13 are necessarily vulnerable, given their sex, age and lack of experience.)

OP I think (though there are others better qualified than me to say) that the single sex exceptions in the EA are what you can call upon to demonstrate that they could (and should) have provided alternative sleeping accommodation for this young person of the male sex, and not forced the girls to sleep in a mixed sex dorm. You should also read the school’s safeguarding policy which just by law be on their website, as that may also be a good resource.

I would also refer to the context of #metoo and Everyone’s Invited, the stratospheric level of sexual harassment endured by girls in schools (and life generally), which the school cannot fail to be aware of. Making girls sleep in a dorm with a male pupil in that context is completely unacceptable and makes a mockery of any work they are doing/have done around consent, boundaries, and the right of girls to say no. You said they weren’t even asked. It’s unforgivable.

I am so sorry your DD and the other two girls had this situation inflicted on them. Would be interested to know her feelings about it but totally understand if you feel you can’t/don’t want to share that here.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Sorry Robin. We have discussed how flawed your understanding of the EA2010 is before.

Hugoslavia

Hello, there's quite a lot to talk about in your post here. I'll try to go through it point by point, in two posts.

To counter some of the fear, if he is genuinely identifying as female (and it's not just some recent fad), then the chances are that he would be attracted to boys, not girls.

What do you think these chances are? This is a media-driven stereotype. In my experience, transwomen may be attracted to males, females, or be bisexual. Trans people are far more 3-dimensional than Hayley Cropper on Coronation Street. The first transwoman I was ever friends with (we're going back over 15 years ago) described herself as gynosexual because she said it was inappropriate to call herself a lesbian.

Secondly, it is not purely about the possibility of sexual attraction. I don't really want to change into my pyjamas in front of male gay friends, either!

But suppose it is a recent fad, as you raise the possibility?

And, I would have thought that most Yr 8 girls wouldn't wish to have sex in the first place, much less in front of their friends and the chances of them being attracted to a boy who identifies as a girl would be even less so.

Dignity and comfort? What if sharing with a male makes them feel upset?

Secondly, the child in question is unlikely to be a rapist any more than anyone's teenage Yr 8 son.

I entirely agree. Therein lies the problem. That probability is a non-zero number. Every single rapist on this planet, every single male who has every enjoyed intimidating females, is someone's son. Every single one. Currently, one rape a day happens in UK schools. A 12 year old girl died by suicide this year, after being raped by a schoolmate.

My local secondary school was named on the Everyone's Invited website, a grassroots campaign by current schoolchildren and recent school-leavers, to expose peer-on-peer sexual abuse in our schools.

extract

A woman who was sexually harassed as a 14-year-old schoolgirl has spoken about her ordeal to encourage others to come forward and put an end to "rape culture".
(Continues)

Many of the perpetrators are said to be at the same school or in the same social groups.

One anonymous victim revealed: "When I was nine years old I was sexually abused for weeks on end by an older boy.

"He was obviously into pornography although he was only about 13 and had many resulting 'ideas' of how women should be treated."

Another said: "Aged 12, I was pressured into sending nude pictures to a boy in my year.

"I had no idea this was even a thing. I felt so disgusted doing it but I felt like I had to."

One talked of abuse on a school trip: "I was 12 at the time when I was sexually assaulted. It was on a school trip and I was alone.

"Instead of being offered any help after the situation I was manipulated not to make an official police report because it would end and ruin the trip for everyone else."

On Monday, Education Secretary Gavin Williamson described the testimonies coming to light as"abhorrent"and a top police officer warned some schools may even have covered up sexual offences in order to protect their reputation.

Simon Bailey, chief constable and lead officer for child protection for the National Police Chiefs' Council, told The Times he was concerned a "culture of misogyny and sexual harassment" had not been challenged at some of the schools named.

news.sky.com/story/everyones-invited-campaign-school-harassment-victim-tells-her-story-to-encourage-others-to-speak-out-12260414

Purgatory I note RMW conveniently ignored what you posted from the EHRC. Hmmm.

Secondly, the child in question is unlikely to be a rapist any more than anyone's teenage Yr 8 son.

Wow, Hugoslavia, do you actually live in a world made of candy floss and rose petals? Do you never read/watch the news? Have you not seen the reports about the horrific levels of sexual violence, including rapes, in schools, overwhelmingly committed by boys against girls? In primary schools as well as secondaries?

No, of course the average Y8 boy won’t be a rapist, any more than the average man will be, but that there will be boys of that age who are rapists is beyond question. It is happening right here in the UK on a scale that really shouldn’t be tolerated. But is.

And people like you contribute to the culture that permits it, with your determination to put the wants of a boy ahead of the needs and feelings of girls. It is your post and your POV that are sickening in their misogyny. You can get off your moral high horse right now: it’s you who is displaying a form of casual hatred for girls, and total ignorance of the reality of life - particularly of what girls endure.

I entirely agree. Therein lies the problem. That probability is a non-zero number.

I don't know if we're allowed to talk about this; maybe it isn't constructive.

But yes, there's the prior probability of any given teenage male being dangerous to girls. And it is very far from zero.

And then there's the probability given that said male has chosen to insert himself into spaces where the girls are sleeping.

Some people seem to think that you adjust the probability downwards in this situation. I think those people are - at best - delusional.

Wanting to be in women's private spaces is not a sign of harmlessness.

I came expecting an update and see parents are being told again how hateful we are to protect our daughters need for safety, privacy and dignity. And how a Yr 8 male should have their’s prioritised above any female’s.

Next we will be told the rapes in the Loudon County schools didn’t happen, because no male child could ever rape or sexually assault a female.

I mean, we have been told that we, as mothers, have no fucking idea what our daughters need… even though I doubt it is fucking changed since any of us were teenage girls. Oh … yeah. That’s right. We are being told my males!

Alright then.

Excellent post, Potholes.

Oh … yeah. That’s right. We are being told my males!

As ever Helleofabore, as ever, even the menopause is not off limits a man must tell us what we must accept.

There's a thread on here about the problems 'gender neutral' toilets in schools are causing girls, no doubt Hugoslavia would tell us all that it's not that bad and what on earth do the girls want safety, dignity and privacy for anyway.

Personally, and in my long experience of being sexually harassed, any man or boy who is insistent on being allowed into female only spaces does not care very much about what women and girls think.

To counter some of the fear, if he is genuinely identifying as female (and it's not just some recent fad), then the chances are that he would be attracted to boys, not girls.

I don’t think this is true. What evidence do you have for this claim?

And, I would have thought that most Yr 8 girls wouldn't wish to have sex in the first place, much less in front of their friends and the chances of them being attracted to a boy who identifies as a girl would be even less so.

Do you honestly know anything about safeguarding? At all?

And seriously, what Yr 8 wants to get dressed in front of a male? What shower is that male using?

Secondly, the child in question is unlikely to be a rapist any more than anyone's teenage Yr 8 son.

Anything about safeguarding?

Therefore, in the highly unlikely scenario of a girl finding herself pregnant, I would suggest that it would be most likely consensual. Therefore that might be something to discuss before going on any residential trip as there will also be opportunities for them to mingle/socialise with the opposite sex in any event in some hidden corner or other.

Honestly, anything about safeguarding?

Post 2

Therefore, in the highly unlikely scenario of a girl finding herself pregnant, I would suggest that it would be most likely consensual.

And does this mean we should not prevent it?!

13 year old girls may want to have sex, or think they want to; sadly, sometimes children respond to previous childhood sexual abuse by engaging in hypersexual behaviour. This does not eliminate the ramifications of underage pregnancy, emotionally, physically, or educationally. Did you know that such a pregnancy in this age range is automatically a high-risk pregnancy, because girls begin menstruating and ovulating before their bodies are fully mature to cope with the physical strain of pregnancy and childbirth? A child is more likely to need a caesarean (with the recovery of surgery involved) because her pelvis is simply too narrow for the baby to exit. She is more likely to develop pre-eclampsia and HELLP syndrome because her liver is too small to cope with the demands of both she and the baby.

If not caught in time, HELLP Syndrome leads to liver rupture and death, and the only treatment for it is delivery of the baby, no matter how premature it is.

The leading cause of death worldwide for girls aged between 14 and 19 is complications of childbirth and pregnancy and this is why. Even in the developed world, like our own country, it is dangerous.

Having read all that, I have a question for you. Your daughter is on a school trip. Sadly, there is a road accident and your daughter's school coach is caught in it. She is badly injured as a result. How would you feel if you found out that the children had been allowed to choose not to wear the available seat belts? My child's school uses coaches with seat belts, and I am aware that staff enforce seat belt use. They do not think 13 year olds can fully comprehend and assess the risks of not wearing a seatbelt, so it isn't left up to the children. Would you expect parents to be okay with it if the staff left it up to children?

What if school staff supervising a school skiing trip had been allowing your 13 year old daughter to ski without wearing her ski helmet?

If she has to be invalided home with a head injury, will it be okay with you if she consented to go down the mountain without her helmet? Or would you feel that the staff should never have allowed her to put herself in such a position?

We have not discussed the psychological impact for a young teenage girl of either having a baby or choosing to terminate. That is an entire thread in itself.

Therefore that might be something to discuss before going on any residential trip as there will also be opportunities for them to mingle/socialise with the opposite sex in any event in some hidden corner or other. That said, I can understand some girls feeling awkward about getting dressed etc in a room with a trans child, although I suspect that it is much more awkward for the trans child themselves.

So it would be better for the child to have a private room then! I mentioned some old trans friends in my last post. Since you bring it up, one of the things I remember discussing with them once, years and years back, is their wish for a private room on school trips. None had wanted to be with the children of their own biological sex, but also, none had wanted their peers of the sex that they wished to live to see their bodies, either! They did not want their friends at school to see how their bodies differed. This was especially the case for transboys (female children who identify as boys) as the threat of corrective rape is always a risk for transmen.

If a transgirl (a male child who identifies as a girl) wishes to share personal quarters with the girls, I speculate that child has not thought ahead (very likely, being a child) or that they may very well be definitely attracted to females.

Personally, I would talk to the school and ask them what measures they put in place generally during a trip to ensure the safety of kids. You may find that a teacher sleeps in one of the dorms anyway.

Yes, so would I. But I feel prevention is better than a cure.

Post 3:

Hugoslavia

Firstly, I would like you to read this thread and links.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4277947-12yo-girl-commits-suicide-after-being-raped-by-a-boy-at-her-school

Secondly, as I posted earlier on, on this thread, what about the safety of the male child with gender dysphoria? If you think this child is no risk to the girls, as you previously said, what about this child?

When performing intimate examinations on female patients, male healthcare staff ask for a chaperone for their own protection, as well as the female patient's comfort, in case of a genuine misunderstanding leading to an official complaint, or a female patient making a malicious allegation later.

I am surprised that no-one wishes to safeguard teenage children against such eventualities. If either is a risk for healthcare staff from adult patients who have deliberately sought medical treatment, surely each is a much higher risk in the tempestuous social environment of a secondary school? When a male child is expected to sleep in the same room where various girls are getting prepared for bed? Girls who may be extremely unhappy that this male child is there and feel vulnerable while sleeping?

Male children who feel unable to share with other boys should be given private space of their own for changing and sleeping, as a matter of routine. Not just shunted into the girls' spaces.

oh get a grip, year 8 kids (12-13) aren't having sex and don't want to be. Do you have children? The only 12-13 year olds having sex are in a very bad place.

Obviously, you also have no safeguarding knowledge ignes. And frankly, if a child in year 8 is having sex, they are being sexually assaulted. That is the reality. They are unable to consent.

And safeguarding should be about the sex class that the children belong to. Female children need to be given safety, privacy and dignity from all males. And a male who identifies as trans deserves that too. But not at the expense of any females.

So, no. No year 8 males ever to be in the female dormitory. It is not personal. Safeguarding is not personal. But it is necessary regardless of whether an adult feels it is not.

What reason does an adult male have for insisting that year 8 females have their needs ignored and their boundaries lowered. Sexual boundaries and their boundaries regarding their desire for privacy and dignity?

no, you shouldn't single out one kid because they're different

Indeed. We should treat all males exactly the same.