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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Legal rights of gender dysphoric yr 8 boy to be placed in a girls dorm

293 replies

PrawnQuaver · 12/10/2021 07:13

Please could anyone help me understand the legal rights involved in the situation of a private school placing a gender dysphoric year 8 boy, who is currently identifying as female, into a girls dorm on school residential trip without consulting the parents of the three other girls in that dorm or asking the girls themselves?
The 10 protected characteristics of the 2010 Gender Equality Act have been quoted as cast iron justification but I don't know enough about it to provide a strong counter argument.

I've name changed for this post but am a long time mumsnetter

OP posts:
allmywhat · 26/11/2021 20:55

No year 8 males ever to be in the female dormitory. It is not personal.

no, you shouldn't single out one kid because they're different

🤔

It’s almost like they don’t listen.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 26/11/2021 20:56

After being lectured on the menopause by a man I have zero patience for ppl coming on here shrieking transphobe at us whilst exhibiting absolutely zero knowledge & understanding of the pressures facing girls in school on a daily basis

OldCrone · 26/11/2021 20:56

You seem to have misunderstood what is being discussed here @IgnesFauti.

This is about a boy being placed in a dormitory with girls. He is different from them. He is the opposite sex. He is male, a penis haver. He is not the same as girls, who are female. He should be sharing a dorm with other boys or given a separate room on his own.

Boys don't magically become girls just through wishful thinking. You do understand that, don't you?

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 20:57

Maybe we can be linked up to the evidence at last that transitioning reduces the male propensity to commit sex crimes? I mean for any age?

We have been asking for this evidence across many threads now for years.

Because it is that kind of evidence that helps to formulate safeguarding principals.

I mean, if males who transition have proven to be less risk, surely links to that evidence would be available.

334bu · 26/11/2021 20:58

Zsafeguarding is irrelevant. If kids wanna have sex, they will, and you have to deal with that if you're a parent. If this isn't the implication of a problem, then you're saying that some random kid is a rapist because they're trans. Honestly you should be ashamed of yourself.

This is as logical as your belief that Premier League football clubs are champing at the bit to employ women in their male football teams.

OldCrone · 26/11/2021 20:59

@Helleofabore

Maybe we can be linked up to the evidence at last that transitioning reduces the male propensity to commit sex crimes? I mean for any age?

We have been asking for this evidence across many threads now for years.

Because it is that kind of evidence that helps to formulate safeguarding principals.

I mean, if males who transition have proven to be less risk, surely links to that evidence would be available.

But single sex spaces should still be available for privacy and dignity. Many boys and men prefer single sex spaces when they are undressed as well. It's not just about safety.
IgnesFauti · 26/11/2021 21:01

I mean, I wasn't sexually active until 15/16 etc as were most of my peers, but it's not unheard of. The point I was more making was that if they ARE going to have sex, you can't really stop them without harming them unnecessarily. Yes, you can just gently keep tabs on them and they might not seek that kind of stuff out just yet, but the most important point is that being a helicopter parent just to stop them from having sex is going to ruin them. So don't do that. Try to foster an environment where they feel comfortable talking to you about anything and where you can make sure that if they want to do that, that they can be safe.

334bu · 26/11/2021 21:04

I mean, I wasn't sexually active until 15/16 etc as were most of my peers, but it's not unheard of. The point I was more making was that if they ARE going to have sex, you can't really stop them without harming them unnecessarily. Yes, you can just gently keep tabs on them and they might not seek that kind of stuff out just yet, but the most important point is that being a helicopter parent just to stop them from having sex is going to ruin them. So don't do that. Try to foster an environment where they feel comfortable talking to you about anything and where you can make sure that if they want to do that, that they can be safe.

Easy way to keep girls safer is to make sure they are not sharing sleeping accommodation with students of the opposite sex. It is really very simple?

allmywhat · 26/11/2021 21:05

safeguarding is irrelevant. If kids wanna have sex, they will, and you have to deal with that if you're a parent. you're being such a patronising misogynist implying that girls don't know what they want/what's good for them.

I just wanted to put these two quotes from the thread bumper together and examine the effect.

Hmm. I don’t like it.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/11/2021 21:06

@Sonex

oh get a grip, year 8 kids (12-13) aren't having sex and don't want to be. Do you have children? The only 12-13 year olds having sex are in a very bad place.
Mostly yes.

For example, children who are sexually abused by adults sometimes react by engaging in hypersexual behaviour with peers. To a casual bystander ignorant of the breadth of ways in which rape victims respond, this will look like "consensual" sexual activity. It is not, because the child is too young to be truly capable of consent, and is very damaged.

And this is very relevant, because statistically, between 1 in 4 and 1 in 7 girls (depending on study) is sexually abused before her 18th birthday. The chances are that there are one or more girls with a haunted past in every classroom. The staff may know about some of these, but they will not know about them all. Some will not have disclosed to anyone yet.

This cannot be handwaved away, and school trip plans need to take account of known and unknown victims of child abuse.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 21:10

no, you shouldn't single out one kid because they're different:

They are no different to males. What makes them different to males?

even if there are kids that don't want to share a space with them.

So… you wish to force Yr 8 girls to accept a male as being ‘female’ and to ignore their discomfort at being forced to accept a male as a ‘female’. So effectively female’s needs don’t matter here.

When I was at school, someone made a complaint to the school about a lesbian girl in the girl's changing rooms and this led to her being separated and ostracised and bullied as a result.

And she shouldn’t have been separated due to sexual orientation. That is not safeguarding, that was homophobia pure and simple. Other females are not a threat to females for safeguarding reasons in this case.

You just can't do that stuff to kids. It's not right to get outraged on behalf of young girls you don't know because you just assume everyone thinks like you (bigoted, transphobic)

You really have no idea about safeguarding and are attempting to lecture the many people that are on this thread offering their safeguarding knowledge and qualified experience in dealing with children.

And you realise that many posters also have daughter’s around this age themselves. So, this case is actually hugely important and extremely relevant to our daughters.

We have EVERY right to be outraged for the future of our daughters.

Again, what right do adult males have in forcing teenaged girls, or even younger, to lower their boundaries - sexual boundaries and their boundaries for privacy and dignity? To tell them they have to prioritise those needs of a male above theirs? Seriously? I am interested to know what right adult males think they have to demand these things for girls?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/11/2021 21:17

I invite people to consider this interview with a woman who was one of the UK's youngest mothers.

extract

Kathleen Moss was just 12 years old, the same age as Georgia, when she gave birth to her daughter. To this day, people still mistake them for sisters. It was in June 1998 that ­Kathleen caused a national outcry when she became ­Britain’s then youngest mother, sparking furious debate at the time about declining moral ­standards.

Losing her virginity to a 14-year-old boy — a family friend — in a caravan at Butlins camp in Pwllheli, North Wales, hers seemed to be the bleakest of modern morality tales. They had sex, she said at the time, because they were ‘bored’.

In a newspaper interview after the birth, ­Kathleen — who looked even younger than her years — told the world: ‘I don’t care that I’m a mum of 12. I’ll just have to get on with it like other mums.’

But what happened to them? Until now, ­Kathleen has spoken rarely about her life since Georgia’s notorious birth, for fear of others’ judgement. Today, aged 25, Kathleen cares very much that she became a mother at 12, but cares even more that her ­daughter should not — as she puts it — ‘make the same ­mistakes I did’.

‘When Georgia turned 12, it brought back a lot of memories about what I was like at her age. When I look at her, I find it hard to believe that at her age I was already a mother. She seems so young.

I had to grow up overnight, but I’m proud that Georgia can still be a child and I’m very protective of her innocence,’ says Kathleen.

‘I want her to go to college and have a career before she settles down and has children. She knows what ­happened to me, although we don’t talk about it very much because she’s too young to really understand.

'She knows how important it is for me that she gets an ­education — something I now really wish I’d had.

‘I don’t think Georgia will make the same mistakes I did because she seems much wiser than I was at her age. She knows what she wants from life and wants to meet her ­targets at school. She’s a good kid and I’m very proud of her.

‘I regret falling pregnant so young, but how could I ever regret having Georgia? I can’t imagine life without her. Even though I was only 12, the minute she was put in my arms I just felt overwhelmed with love for her.’

Kathleen adds: ‘It scares me when I think of her becoming a teenager. I keep saying to her: “You are not allowed a ­boyfriend. Finish school, go to ­college or university before you even think about having kids.”’

And at what age would Kathleen allow Georgia to have a boyfriend? ‘Never!’ is the reply.

Kathleen knows there are many people who expected her to be a ­disaster as a mother. Indeed, how could a 12-year-old be expected to possess the maturity and responsible attitude required to raise a child when she was so vulnerable herself. And while it would be fair to say Kathleen would have little in ­common with some middle-class mummies, with their pureed organic carrot and Baby Einstein DVDs, she must have done something right, for when you ask Georgia, she says: ‘She’s the best mum in the world.’

Georgia continues: ‘When I went to school I never noticed that my mum was much younger than the other mothers. No one ever said anything. She was just like everyone else.’

Today, Georgia is very much ­looking forward to being a bridesmaid at her mother’s forthcoming wedding to fiance Tim Willcox, 24, who she met on a social networking site a year ago and who plans to work in the ­recycling business with his twin brother. ­

Kathleen, who left school without a single qualification, is hoping to retrain as a florist in the near future, having been consigned to a series of ‘dead end’ jobs such as bar work on account of her lack of education.

While shy and lacking in ­confidence, Kathleen seems determined to set a good example for her daughter and provide a more conventional ­upbringing than the one she had.

The family are hoping to move soon from the sprawling council estate in Wythenshawe, Manchester, where Kathleen grew up, to a new home near Milton Keynes.

Yet despite the most ­difficult of childhoods and motherhood at a time when she’d not long grown out of dolls, ­Kathleen is not the type of woman to blame others for how her life turned out, although some might argue she has every reason to.

She will not say a bad word about her late mother, Pauline McCarthy, who she clearly loved, despite her many failings. Pauline died six years ago from breast cancer, aged just 47, and not a day passes when Kathleen doesn’t miss her.

Kathleen was seven years old when her father, Jimmy Moss, who worked for the local council’s refuse ­department, died suddenly from ­cancer aged 53.

Pauline, who’d married at 16 and had three children from her first failed marriage and two from her 17-year relationship with Jimmy, fell apart after his death.

‘The estate where I grew up wasn’t the nicest place in the world, but I remember us being a happy family until my dad died,’ says Kathleen.

‘I was the youngest and a real ­Daddy’s girl. One minute he was there, the next he was gone. It had a huge effect on us and I don’t think my mum got over it. She suffered badly from depression, although she always tried to put on a brave face for us.’

Despite Kathleen’s best efforts to present her mother in a kind light —describing her as wonderfully ­supportive after Georgia was born, spoiling her grandchild — it is clear there was often little parental ­supervision or discipline when ­Kathleen most needed it.

By the age of nine ­Kathleen was regularly playing truant from school, spending her days in front of the television at home and smoking her mother’s ­cigarettes. Welfare ­officers were ­regular visitors to their home, court fines were imposed, but they had ­little positive effect.

In an interview after Georgia’s birth, Pauline McCarthy, who never ­married Kathleen’s father and ­confessed to drinking up to six cans of lager a night, appeared to ­abdicate all ­parental responsibility by saying: ‘Kathleen has a mind of her own. She may only be 12, but she makes her own decisions in life. I don’t tell her what to do.’

In a further shocking admission, she said she hadn’t even realised ­Kathleen was pregnant until she was eight months gone and close to ­giving birth. It was one of Kathleen’s older half-sisters who first suspected.

‘I was a bit rebellious,’ says ­Kathleen.

‘I just didn’t like school and didn’t want to go. My mum tried to make me, but I’d run away and come home again. I regret that now. My mum gave me a lot of ­freedom. She was never breathing down my neck, but looking back I wish that she had.

‘I’m very different with Georgia. I’m quite easy-going, and while I give her some freedom I’m much more ­protective and want to make sure she gets the education I never had. I loved my mum, but I’m a very ­different kind of mother.’

Kathleen says she was not a ­sexually precocious child. Ignorance, naivety and a lack of parental ­supervision appear to have been her undoing.

She’d gone on holiday to Butlins, in North Wales, with her older brother, then aged 17, his girlfriend and her family when she had sex for the first time. It was with the 14-year-old brother of her brother’s girlfriend.

It wasn’t love, she says, it wasn’t curiosity, it wasn’t experimentation, it was just something that ­happened when they became bored with the ­television programme they were watching alone together one night.

Nor does she blame the boy, ­Georgia’s father. She says they both knew what they were doing. It was, however, something they never cared to repeat.

‘I didn’t realise I was pregnant until after about four or five months when my tummy started to get bigger, because I was still having periods. I was terrified and just went into denial. I thought that if I ignored it, it would just go away,’ says ­Kathleen, who hid her bump under baggy clothes and a thick puffa jacket.

‘It was my older half-sister, who was 22 at the time and living with her partner, who became suspicious because she’d just had a baby.

‘One evening, my older brother and his girlfriend came round with a ­pregnancy test. When it came back positive, they were shocked.

‘We went downstairs and told my mum and she just burst into tears. I don’t know if she felt embarrassed or ashamed of what people would say, because it was all such a blur.

‘She was angry, not so much with me, but with other people for not keeping an eye on me on holiday. It was unheard of back then for a girl of my age to have a baby.’

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1313133/Kathleen-Moss-gave-birth-12-horrified-UK-daughter-12-too.html

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 21:20

I mean, I wasn't sexually active until 15/16 etc as were most of my peers, but it's not unheard of.

And still you continue to display a complete lack of knowledge about children in regards to sex. If a child of 12-13 is having sex, it is abuse. Do you understand that?

Do you think that any male of 12/13 should be sleeping in a dormitory with females?

The point I was more making was that if they ARE going to have sex, you can't really stop them without harming them unnecessarily.

So…. This is another version of ‘they are going to do it anyway, may as well just facilitate it anyway’. Like, a male is going to rape you any way, don’t bother taking steps to stop them.

Yes, you can just gently keep tabs on them and they might not seek that kind of stuff out just yet, but the most important point is that being a helicopter parent just to stop them from having sex is going to ruin them.

Do you understand they are 12/13? Seriously.

So don't do that.

Stop trying to shame parents from protecting their 12/13 year olds! I cannot believe what I am reading here.

Try to foster an environment where they feel comfortable talking to you about anything and where you can make sure that if they want to do that, that they can be safe.

Setting boundaries is actually a healthy part of parenting and children who have a healthy knowledge of their boundaries and a healthy expectation that they should be respected, tend to have healthy communication with their parents.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/11/2021 21:23

@IgnesFauti

I mean, I wasn't sexually active until 15/16 etc as were most of my peers, but it's not unheard of. The point I was more making was that if they ARE going to have sex, you can't really stop them without harming them unnecessarily. Yes, you can just gently keep tabs on them and they might not seek that kind of stuff out just yet, but the most important point is that being a helicopter parent just to stop them from having sex is going to ruin them. So don't do that. Try to foster an environment where they feel comfortable talking to you about anything and where you can make sure that if they want to do that, that they can be safe.
Sooooo, you're saying that placing male and female children in different rooms to sleep is helicopter parenting?

I don't think you're engaging with the posts here. Tell me, have you ever heard of HELLP syndrome before? What about shoulder dystocia?

When I gave birth, the woman in the room next door - an adult - had a shoulder dystocia. I've never forgotten her scream of agony.

PinkMochi · 26/11/2021 21:25

I couldn’t share dorms with my gay male friends when I was on school residential trips. Not sure why this teen with a penis (no matter which gender they identify with) is allowed to share a room with girls!

Doubletoilandtrouble · 26/11/2021 21:25

This is a bit of a new angle to break down boundaries…

We had a poster (not a biological female) before who wanted all primary school aged children to have detailed education about anal sex and sex toys because “it would have been beneficial to them”.

Now we have a poster who seems to say that only “bad girls” have early sex and that in any case parents should let them get on with it.

These are still 13 year old girls. They need to be protected and encouraged to have boundaries. On school trips, parents trust the school to help maintain these boundaries. Penis people should not sleep in the same room as girls.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/11/2021 21:34

These are still 13 year old girls. They need to be protected and encouraged to have boundaries. On school trips, parents trust the school to help maintain these boundaries. Penis people should not sleep in the same room as girls.

This.

The Kathleens of this world matter.

OldCrone · 26/11/2021 21:38

@IgnesFauti

I mean, I wasn't sexually active until 15/16 etc as were most of my peers, but it's not unheard of. The point I was more making was that if they ARE going to have sex, you can't really stop them without harming them unnecessarily. Yes, you can just gently keep tabs on them and they might not seek that kind of stuff out just yet, but the most important point is that being a helicopter parent just to stop them from having sex is going to ruin them. So don't do that. Try to foster an environment where they feel comfortable talking to you about anything and where you can make sure that if they want to do that, that they can be safe.
Do you think making school dorms mixed sex makes it more or less likely that some children will have sex?

Do you think making school dorms mixed sex makes it more or less likely that girls will be raped or sexually assaulted?

Do you think parents should be told if their daughters will be sharing a dorm with boys on a school trip?

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 21:38

The Kathleens of this world definitely matter.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/11/2021 21:42

IgnesFauti

I mean, I wasn't sexually active until 15/16 etc as were most of my peers, but it's not unheard of.

Seeing as you have brought it up, I remember from another thread that you are a transwoman with a wife, i.e. married to a female spouse.

Hugoslavia's post gave me the impression that she thought transwomen were attracted to males, and that she thought those not attracted to men were perhaps not genuinely trans.

Would you like to confirm that transwomen are individuals and they may be attracted to males, females or both sexes?

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 21:45

Does Ignes know the difference between responsible parenting, helicopter parenting and dangerously detached parenting?

If Ignes had a child of 12/13 would Ignes be allowing them to have sex?

Does Ignes realise the implications of that decision if that child told someone who had a responsibility to report that?

BreadInCaptivity · 26/11/2021 21:50

As a general principle allowing some children to dictate adherence to their wants at the expense of others is a poor life lesson for all involved.

For the former in being able to respect the boundaries/rights other others and for the latter that their rights/boundaries have value.

People who grow up unable to grasp these concepts rarely have happy, respectful and fulfilling relationships/attachments.

The importance of safeguarding aside, this insistence on validation of gender over sex at any cost, has the potential to cause significant long term harm to all the children being impacted/indoctrinated/pressured to buy into this ideological concept.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2021 21:56

maybe Ignes has noted that nobody has called for this young male to be subject to any degradation at all. This male student should have their needs for safety, privacy and dignity respected the SAME as those female students.

However, Ignes seems to be clear in completely disregarding the needs of female children here.

It really is the same old, same old. And very misogynistic when you strip it down to what it really is. Some people really hate females that don't accommodate their needs when directed.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/11/2021 23:08

I find Ignes' nonchalance on the matter of sexual activity for 13 year olds disturbing, especially after I read the interview with Kathleen.

It is clear that Kathleen loves her daughter very deeply, but it is also clear that Kathleen, having been a teenage mother, was desperate for her daughter not to have such a life. She wanted her daughter to enjoy her childhood, finish school, and get qualifications.

The positive recollections of someone who was first sexually active at 15/16 are unpersuasive to me regarding 13 year olds. Especially when - forgive me for being blunt - Ignes would not have been the one whose life was physically and educationally upended by an accidental pregnancy.

RedDogsBeg · 26/11/2021 23:21

The point I was more making was that if they ARE going to have sex, you can't really stop them without harming them unnecessarily.

Yes you fucking can.