Sex/Gender Wars - What would be a win?

[joolzfromyork]

As the Title ...

What's a win? for you individually?

I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...

It's reasonable to believe that the majority view falls somewhere between these two points ... but where?

There is no real consensus that has emerged which all GC people subscribe to ...

So, I wonder ... what's a win? what would make you believe that this issue had been solved/dealt with to your satisfaction ?

Anyone like to have a stab at this one?

The question involves no trickery, Honest opinions - however blunt - are sought (Hopefully the mods will adopt a light touch ...) but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN, I would like to understand better what people 'really' want, as distinct from what the loudest voices claim they want ... what do you want to happen?

Of course, since I am asking the question, it goes without saying that extra credit can be gained through the use of 'Flippancy' and 'Sarcasm' ... so, by all means, Have at it.

But if anyone could/would have a go at answering the question, I'd be grateful

For single sex (not gender) spaces to be freely available and their need accepted and understood.

For healthcare for children and teens that identify as a different gender to be properly evidenced.

That ok for a start?

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...

I've never seen that, certainly not here.

Apart from that...
Let kids be kids, let women be women, and let trans people have all the rights they want that dont impinge on women's and children's.

I think we'd be much better off to be in a place where the idea of "gender identity" as some kind of separate capacity inside every person's brain that corresponds to the real them went the way of the dodo.

And we mainly used a simple definition of sex which, while it would likely be associated with certain cultural expressions, wasn't limiting people to them. Pronouns would be sex based.

As far as medical approaches for people with serious sex dysphoria, I am happy to accept certain accommodations but I would love to see real evidence based approaches pursued more seriously. The medical option aren't what I'd call overwhelmingly great, presenting as the sex you're not is never going to be a seamless outcome.

As far as kids the #1 thing would be to stop people telling them if they feel wrong about their bodies they can change sex, so they can get on with the difficult work of becoming reconciled to their adult bodies.

Goady, much? You are looking at the question the wrong way round, OP.
GC feminists are fully supportive of transgender people’s human rights.
We simply wish to deny them the “extra” right of entering opposite sex spaces on the basis of self ID. Our remit is the safeguarding of women’s and children’s rights.

I think it will be a draw. Women will put in years of effort in a bitter fight against the gender identity ideology to end up in a stalemate. Some ground will end up being lost but many of the real excesses will ultimately be rejected.

At that point the refrain will be "we've been telling you women for years it was all going to be all fine but you have been banging on, and look, your hysteria was totally uncalled for". Then the complacency will set in again.

I want to be able to speak freely.
I don't want people to have unnecessary surgery because they don't like their healthy body.
I want to be free to wear what I like without people making assumptions about my sex life, hobbies etc.
I want to know that there are places I can get away from male bodies. If make bodies should enter those places, I want to feel free to scream and call for help.

I am not a lesbian because I have short hair and wear dungarees. My son is not gay because he wears eyeliner. My grandson is neither gay nor a girl, because he likes copying his mummy.

blockers being given to those you see as being children

As an educator, I feel uncomfortable with this phrasing.
Children are people under 18.
Children shouldn't make life altering decisions until their brains have matured (around age 25)
Particularly when we know so little about the long-term effects.

I don't think many people want to 'ban' adults transitioning. As long as they understand sex doesn't change and sex based rights are not negotiable.

I’m not sure how it could be a draw, nauticant. You either allow male genitals in women’s single sex spaces or you don’t!

but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN,

I'm interested in why you don't think a sensible path will be found on MN?

I wonder if you've actually read any threads on here - no one to my knowledge has ever said they want to deny adult transitioners access to healthcare or surgery - I'm curious as to how you got that notion.

No medical transition for under 18s.

Women's spaces returned to female only - hospital wards, prisons, changing areas, sports etc...

Public toilets I accept cannot be policed in some circumstances but I would like women to be able to call for help or report dodgy behaviour without fear of being criminalised. All this nonsense about not ever questioning who is in there needs to stop.

I want to be able to talk about women's rights without qualifiers or accusations.

I don't want to be forced (either legally or by the use of threat and fear) to pretend men are women when it's not in my best interests to do so.

For the word women to mean born women only

That trans means trans women or trans men, but doesn't mean they actually change sex and can't mean TWAW or TMAM

That single sex spaces remain so, see above, you us the toilets facilities that you were born.

Or to make it more inclusive ALL toilets are single sex contained units, that can fit wheelchairs and buggies.

That clear words are used medically, people are categorised by their born sex, with a sub category which states which sex they would like to be referred as. Therefore all women would be called for a smear test and all men called for a prostate test.

STOP trying to push operations/medications on our children...those under 18yrs. Allow them to grow and get used to their changing bodies.

STOP the sexualisation of our children, mostly girls, so they don't feel the need to ditch their bodies to be comfortable.

Womens seats are for women
Men's seats are for men
Let's have trans seats for trans
Don't push aside women to make room for trans women

That would just about do it for me

• Repeal The GRA

• The rights of transgender people protected by amending the protected characteristic of sexual orientation to encompass presentation as well as sexual attraction.

• Accurate record-keeping by all official bodies.

• New paralympic categories for DSD athletes and post-op transwomen and men.

I'd like single sex places to be kept single sex. With the introduction of 3rd spaces for people who want them/are happy to share with the opposite sex.

I'd like the words man and woman to retain their meaning.

I'd like people to be free to wear whatever they want regardless of their sex. Likewise hair styles. My son is not "a transgender bitch" because he has long hair. He's a boy with long hair.

Yes. Accurate statistics, medical records and not recording male crime as female. Forgot to add those.

@Jaysmith71

* Repeal The GRA

• The rights of transgender people protected by amending the protected characteristic of sexual orientation to encompass presentation as well as sexual attraction.

• Accurate record-keeping by all official bodies.

• New paralympic categories for DSD athletes and post-op transwomen and men.

These are good.

People returning to a belief in science and biology would be best. I feel like I'm living in the age of Galileo, when he was forced to recant by the Inquisition his discovery that the earth was not the centre of the solar system.
Of course, genuinely gender dysphoric people should get the help they need and not be discriminated against, but women should not be forced to give up their spaces, real or metaphorical, to men who believe themselves to be women. Because most people do not share that faith.

“I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...”

Re: this, just proper, evidence based medical care that isn’t based on stereotypes and ladybrains.

Re: everything else, recognition that women need rights as a sex class, that this has nothing to do with gender, and that therefore there is a conflict of rights.

Recognition that ‘trans women are women’ makes the word ‘woman’ meaningless and that this is harmful.

End to dangerous claims about suicide.

@OvaHere

No medical transition for under 18s.

Women's spaces returned to female only - hospital wards, prisons, changing areas, sports etc...

Public toilets I accept cannot be policed in some circumstances but I would like women to be able to call for help or report dodgy behaviour without fear of being criminalised. All this nonsense about not ever questioning who is in there needs to stop.

I want to be able to talk about women's rights without qualifiers or accusations.

I don't want to be forced (either legally or by the use of threat and fear) to pretend men are women when it's not in my best interests to do so.

All of this

That's quite a few answers, maybe the OP would like to give an opinion now. You think a 'path to compromise exists' - what do you think it is?

... it's not a football match.

Let's try applying standards of equality and care equally to male and female people, their inclusion, their needs, whether trans or not. Let's find answers that work for everyone.

And yes, to repeal the GRA. It should never have gone into law that someone can have a legal fiction of belonging to a group that they in fact do not, it has been proven to cause nothing but problems, and it opens all sorts of doors to many other problems. The original legal inequity it was created to fix no longer exists, it is not needed.

@MrMrsJones

For the word women to mean born women only

That trans means trans women or trans men, but doesn't mean they actually change sex and can't mean TWAW or TMAM

That single sex spaces remain so, see above, you us the toilets facilities that you were born.

Or to make it more inclusive ALL toilets are single sex contained units, that can fit wheelchairs and buggies.

That clear words are used medically, people are categorised by their born sex, with a sub category which states which sex they would like to be referred as. Therefore all women would be called for a smear test and all men called for a prostate test.

STOP trying to push operations/medications on our children...those under 18yrs. Allow them to grow and get used to their changing bodies.

STOP the sexualisation of our children, mostly girls, so they don't feel the need to ditch their bodies to be comfortable.

Womens seats are for women
Men's seats are for men
Let's have trans seats for trans
Don't push aside women to make room for trans women

That would just about do it for me

I could definitely work with these. And of course I would use pronouns, chosen names etc as a courtesy.

Any sign of that compromise yet, OP?

@ErrolTheDragon

I'm not playing at 'Hit and Run Posting' ... promise.

But I don't want to get dragged into disagreeing with things that people post ... (well. not yet maybe )

Its more important to me to hear what people think.

(Having said that ... @ErrolThe Dragon and @titchy howzabout we restate the question thus ...

As the Title ...

What's a win? for you individually?

I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...

It's reasonable to believe that the majority view falls somewhere between these two points ... but where?

There is no real consensus that has emerged which all GC people subscribe to ...

So, I wonder ... what's a win? what would make you believe that this issue had been solved/dealt with to your satisfaction ?

Anyone like to have a stab at this one?

The question involves no trickery, Honest opinions - however blunt - are sought (Hopefully the mods will adopt a light touch ...) but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN, I would like to understand better what people 'really' want, as distinct from what the loudest voices claim they want ... what do you want to happen?

Of course, since I am asking the question, it goes without saying that extra credit can be gained through the use of 'Flippancy' and 'Sarcasm' ... so, by all means, Have at it.

But if anyone could/would have a go at answering the question, I'd be grateful

The OP hasn't come back and engaged in debate then? How incredibly astonishing....