Sex/Gender Wars - What would be a win?

[joolzfromyork]

As the Title ...

What's a win? for you individually?

I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...

It's reasonable to believe that the majority view falls somewhere between these two points ... but where?

There is no real consensus that has emerged which all GC people subscribe to ...

So, I wonder ... what's a win? what would make you believe that this issue had been solved/dealt with to your satisfaction ?

Anyone like to have a stab at this one?

The question involves no trickery, Honest opinions - however blunt - are sought (Hopefully the mods will adopt a light touch ...) but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN, I would like to understand better what people 'really' want, as distinct from what the loudest voices claim they want ... what do you want to happen?

Of course, since I am asking the question, it goes without saying that extra credit can be gained through the use of 'Flippancy' and 'Sarcasm' ... so, by all means, Have at it.

But if anyone could/would have a go at answering the question, I'd be grateful

Urgh, sorry, format fail. I'll repeat with spaces before people hurt their eyes.

OP, I can see that you probably came here to post this with good intentions.

Here’s the thing.

Your first post was classic of a type often seen on women’s boards from a new arrival: here’s a subject: discuss. You also made it clear after many women engaged that you were watching, waiting, wishing to have their replies laid out for you before you would explain to what purpose you wanted that information, what you would do with it and what you thought. Do you honestly not see what you communicated there about your belief in your greater power and superiority, and your belief about the lesser status of the women you wished to use for your purpose? Which they’d find out about when they’d made themselves vulnerable to you, and when you felt good and ready?

You’ve explained how you have kept your ability to have respect and empathy for female humans in your transition, and to treat them, for quite a lot of the time, as entitled to things like privacy and to not be afraid of you. And then your line: (waits for the slapping thats coming my way because I use the female toilets in my workplace) ….

Yeah, I’m done now.

You signalled there, quite clearly, that after all the time you’ve taken to be nice to women that anyone having a problem with this is unreasonable. You’re also making it clear you’re aware of the problem for women with your choice, but hey ho. You are telling women here; clearly. You know you have all the power in this situation. Sometimes you will choose to respect their needs, because you’re a nice person. Sometimes you might not. The choice is yours and not theirs and you don’t expect them to be ungrateful.

I will get stick from other women on this thread that I am not being sufficiently appreciative that a male person has given women their valuable time and attention, has told us all about their effort to show some gestures towards respecting women, that they have told us what an unusually nice male person that they am, and that I should praise and encourage this as my role in ‘removing the toxicity’.

Thank you Master for not harming women as much as Karen White did. Thank you for choosing to indulge us and be nice to us from your position of power that you make sure we notice, because as you show; you could choose not to. I appreciate that you are a nice and probably well intentioned Master. But I am still operating the underground railroad to get every female I can out of this, and if I can burn down the plantation on the way I will, because I don’t want nice ownership. I want females to be seen as equally human and males to not see themselves as the owners of females, female spaces, female resources, the superior race for whom female lives and inclusion and rights are in their gift. And they might be generous if we’re lucky, or they might not.

How can you expect anything from me except a resounding Foxtrot Oscar?

I live in a world, right now, where I am expected to listen to male people (and their male centric female enablers) talk at length about how sex is complicated and not binary and endless obfustication to try and justify why they can be women if they want to – while at the same time requiring me to silently accept that they are telling me, over and over, with their actions, with their words, sex is binary, it’s a hierarchy and you lose . The whole ‘sex doesn’t exist’ bit is one sex forcing another into subordination. With gaslighting. And legal penalties for refusing to pretend something you don’t believe and which makes you speak aloud your own subordination, that just repeats again: ‘you have all the power, sir. I am in your hands.’

@Artichokeleaves

Ummmm ... OK

You think I have power? really ?

I am not signalling anything ... just answering questions that were asked (seems fair if I want others to offer an answer to my question).

When (or perhaps if) we interact again, let's hope for a more fruitful exchange eh ?

Look again at your thread title, and ask yourself why 50% of humanity is permanently engaged in war. Often against the other 50%.

No medical transition for under 18s, to be replaced with watchful waiting as the vast majority of gender dysphoria resolves with puberty.

All women's spaces for women only, with third spaces provided for trans people who don't want to use the spaces for their own sex.

No male bodies in sport.

Return to using sex-based language such as women.

No penalties, social or otherwise, to people who wish to speak the truth about sex is a binary and so on.

Severe penalties for universities and other bodies that don't rigorously uphold free speech.

Stonewall disbanded in favour of an institution that actually upholds rather than undermines gay rights.

Any prizes, etc designed as women only actually only for biological women.

Society at large to be fully aware of the issue of ideological capture and it's impact, with measures put in place to try to minimise the chances of this insanity ever happening again - particularly involving regulation of social media corporations.

When (or perhaps if) we interact again, let's hope for a more fruitful exchange eh ?

Why? What's the point. You're not saying much that MN would disagree with (though I notice the big ticket items you agree with us about are presumably not ones that effect you - you're not an Olympic standard athlete, a child seeking PBs, an incarcerated criminal, you merely use the ladies at work - and I'll bet none have challenged you.)

But there's really no point you posting here. There's nothing particularly new or controversial about your posts.

What would be truly enlightening is if you posted the same question to a group of TRAs. But I doubt you'll do that somehow. So you'll remain vaguely aware of how GCs are treated and you'll continue not to be a total arsehole, but you won't really engage with them or learn what real fear is.

Replying for the women reading.

Full reinstatement of women's rights, which will include the disentanglement of sex and "gender" in all law and policy. Thus repeal of GRA at a bare minimum. The return of single sex spaces, services, sports.

It made clear by policy and all orgs and institutions that men must do the work of accepting their non conforming brethren.

Full reinstatement of child protection principles, which will include the end to permanent medical or surgical interventions in minors, the end to conversion therapy by so-called "transing away the gay", the removal of all propaganda material in schools.

A return to freedom of expression and policing by consent. No more participation by police in political events, no more recording of non crime hate incidents, the usual legal standard of "reasonable person" returned.

An end to the falsification of identity documents: passports, driving licences, birth certificates, DBS certificates.

I could do more, but that's off the top of my head.

For me, the crux of the problem is ‘trans women are women’

This phrase is used to render any talk of competing rights transphobic. It removes the language women need to talk about the rights, services and medical treatment they need because of sex, and imposes a gender identity that I don’t accept.

OP I don’t have to agree with you about which toilets you should use. We are both entitled to make our arguments. (And toilets really are at the bottom of the list of things I care about).

I do need language to make my argument.

[quote joolzfromyork]@Artichokeleaves

Ummmm ... OK

You think I have power? really ?

I am not signalling anything ... just answering questions that were asked (seems fair if I want others to offer an answer to my question).

When (or perhaps if) we interact again, let's hope for a more fruitful exchange eh ?[/quote]
No. Let's not.

I politely decline that head pat thanks.

And yes. You might not consciously realise it but you're making it very clear that you know you have all the power in this relationship with women. And on this board. That you've not just joined in as any other woman talking for an example.

I think the stuff about puberty blockers is separate and relates to medical malpractice.

@Artichokeleaves

Urgh, sorry, format fail. I'll repeat with spaces before people hurt their eyes.

OP, I can see that you probably came here to post this with good intentions.

Here’s the thing.

Your first post was classic of a type often seen on women’s boards from a new arrival: here’s a subject: discuss. You also made it clear after many women engaged that you were watching, waiting, wishing to have their replies laid out for you before you would explain to what purpose you wanted that information, what you would do with it and what you thought. Do you honestly not see what you communicated there about your belief in your greater power and superiority, and your belief about the lesser status of the women you wished to use for your purpose? Which they’d find out about when they’d made themselves vulnerable to you, and when you felt good and ready?

You’ve explained how you have kept your ability to have respect and empathy for female humans in your transition, and to treat them, for quite a lot of the time, as entitled to things like privacy and to not be afraid of you. And then your line: (waits for the slapping thats coming my way because I use the female toilets in my workplace) ….

Yeah, I’m done now.

You signalled there, quite clearly, that after all the time you’ve taken to be nice to women that anyone having a problem with this is unreasonable. You’re also making it clear you’re aware of the problem for women with your choice, but hey ho. You are telling women here; clearly. You know you have all the power in this situation. Sometimes you will choose to respect their needs, because you’re a nice person. Sometimes you might not. The choice is yours and not theirs and you don’t expect them to be ungrateful.

I will get stick from other women on this thread that I am not being sufficiently appreciative that a male person has given women their valuable time and attention, has told us all about their effort to show some gestures towards respecting women, that they have told us what an unusually nice male person that they am, and that I should praise and encourage this as my role in ‘removing the toxicity’.

Thank you Master for not harming women as much as Karen White did. Thank you for choosing to indulge us and be nice to us from your position of power that you make sure we notice, because as you show; you could choose not to. I appreciate that you are a nice and probably well intentioned Master. But I am still operating the underground railroad to get every female I can out of this, and if I can burn down the plantation on the way I will, because I don’t want nice ownership. I want females to be seen as equally human and males to not see themselves as the owners of females, female spaces, female resources, the superior race for whom female lives and inclusion and rights are in their gift. And they might be generous if we’re lucky, or they might not.

How can you expect anything from me except a resounding Foxtrot Oscar?

I live in a world, right now, where I am expected to listen to male people (and their male centric female enablers) talk at length about how sex is complicated and not binary and endless obfustication to try and justify why they can be women if they want to – while at the same time requiring me to silently accept that they are telling me, over and over, with their actions, with their words, sex is binary, it’s a hierarchy and you lose . The whole ‘sex doesn’t exist’ bit is one sex forcing another into subordination. With gaslighting. And legal penalties for refusing to pretend something you don’t believe and which makes you speak aloud your own subordination, that just repeats again: ‘you have all the power, sir. I am in your hands.’

BOOM!

Fantastic post.

Among lots of things already mentioned, i'd like to see Stonewall and all its insidious 'capture' of public organisations dead in the water.

And that includes the downright dangerous Champion Index thing.

I also think Artichokes is spot on, too.

That pos

Pressed Post too soon!

I also think Artichokes is spot on, too.

That post was dynamite!

A scientific approach to people (especially children) who identify as trans, based on looking at their whole life experience and what may be causing their dysphoria rather than immediately assuming they are definitely and permanently trans. Schools teaching watchful waiting and encouraging children to go against stereotypes without assuming they are in the wrong body if they do so.

Single sex spaces being maintained by law, but ideally third spaces (usable by either sex no matter how they identify) being available to anyone that wants them for changing, toilets etc.

@BreatheAndFocus

To me it’s not ‘winning’ because that makes it sound like a competition, like getting one over on trans people, and it is most definitely not about that. It’s about a return to sanity and science. I’d like Gender Ideology to disappear up its own bottom quite frankly because IMO it has little to do with genuinely trans people and glorifies regressive stereotypes.

Anyway, I’d like to see:

• The GRA amended so that trans people can have documents in their chosen gender but their long birth certificate remains unchanged and keeps their birth sex. That way they have privacy and the courtesy of largely being treated as the gender they wish, but the truth/their sex remains on record. This would make it easier where sex matters.

• Puberty blockers banned for children, counselling being the first treatment not affirmation, and transition/surgery banned for under 21s (really I think under 25s would be more sensible, but 21 is a compromise)

• Prisons, refuges and the like to be single sex. Extra facilities set up for trans people if needed.

• Crimes recorded correctly - by sex

• a return to the 70s/80s attitude where boys and girls could wear and do what they want without thinking they must be ‘trans’. I’d like this explicitly taught in schools.

• I’d like medical support for trans people with genuine dysphoria and support throughout their lives with specific medical issues. I’d also like support for detransitioners.

I was going to post similar but I saw this post first. So all of this! I would also add introduction of third/neutral spaces in addition to single sex not instead of, and open categories for sport. There might have been allowance in the past for TW to go into the ladies, and changing rooms etc. Unfortunately a whole cohort followed who demanded this too just because they felt like it and have therefore ruined it for everyone - because no one in charge had the spine to say no. So no.

Sports wise, you can play with your own sex or the open categories. Plenty of opportunities to compete.

None of these actions are preventing trans/NB etc people to take part in daily life, thought I doubt some would see it that way. Nothing but complete removal of all boundaries and nothing but affirmation would do. Even just one of the above points would result in screams of transphobia.

All children are raised and boys or girls depending on if they have a penis or not. They can play with dolls or trucks etc and it’s classed as personality and not a reason to change their gender.
If you’re 25+ and want to change your gender you pay for your own treatment.

To me it seems like attention seeking madness at the moment.

The "No debate!!!!!!!" mandate becoming dead in the water would be a good start, also the accusation of transphobia!!!!!!! whenever women start talking about their rights.
And having everything coming back to TWAW, and if you don't accept that as a truth, then you're a bigot.
I'd like to see the acceptance that sex does matter, and it does matter rather a lot in some circumstances. (And that sex IS binary.)

Everyone’s said it all- science sanity and factual data, with safety for women. Honestly I would also happily add that any man who has sexually assaulted a woman with his penis is not permitted to transition and identify as a woman. The consequences of people’s actions can limit their future choices and I’d vote for this to be such a case.

@Artichokeleaves

Urgh, sorry, format fail. I'll repeat with spaces before people hurt their eyes.

OP, I can see that you probably came here to post this with good intentions.

Here’s the thing.

Your first post was classic of a type often seen on women’s boards from a new arrival: here’s a subject: discuss. You also made it clear after many women engaged that you were watching, waiting, wishing to have their replies laid out for you before you would explain to what purpose you wanted that information, what you would do with it and what you thought. Do you honestly not see what you communicated there about your belief in your greater power and superiority, and your belief about the lesser status of the women you wished to use for your purpose? Which they’d find out about when they’d made themselves vulnerable to you, and when you felt good and ready?

You’ve explained how you have kept your ability to have respect and empathy for female humans in your transition, and to treat them, for quite a lot of the time, as entitled to things like privacy and to not be afraid of you. And then your line: (waits for the slapping thats coming my way because I use the female toilets in my workplace) ….

Yeah, I’m done now.

You signalled there, quite clearly, that after all the time you’ve taken to be nice to women that anyone having a problem with this is unreasonable. You’re also making it clear you’re aware of the problem for women with your choice, but hey ho. You are telling women here; clearly. You know you have all the power in this situation. Sometimes you will choose to respect their needs, because you’re a nice person. Sometimes you might not. The choice is yours and not theirs and you don’t expect them to be ungrateful.

I will get stick from other women on this thread that I am not being sufficiently appreciative that a male person has given women their valuable time and attention, has told us all about their effort to show some gestures towards respecting women, that they have told us what an unusually nice male person that they am, and that I should praise and encourage this as my role in ‘removing the toxicity’.

Thank you Master for not harming women as much as Karen White did. Thank you for choosing to indulge us and be nice to us from your position of power that you make sure we notice, because as you show; you could choose not to. I appreciate that you are a nice and probably well intentioned Master. But I am still operating the underground railroad to get every female I can out of this, and if I can burn down the plantation on the way I will, because I don’t want nice ownership. I want females to be seen as equally human and males to not see themselves as the owners of females, female spaces, female resources, the superior race for whom female lives and inclusion and rights are in their gift. And they might be generous if we’re lucky, or they might not.

How can you expect anything from me except a resounding Foxtrot Oscar?

I live in a world, right now, where I am expected to listen to male people (and their male centric female enablers) talk at length about how sex is complicated and not binary and endless obfustication to try and justify why they can be women if they want to – while at the same time requiring me to silently accept that they are telling me, over and over, with their actions, with their words, sex is binary, it’s a hierarchy and you lose . The whole ‘sex doesn’t exist’ bit is one sex forcing another into subordination. With gaslighting. And legal penalties for refusing to pretend something you don’t believe and which makes you speak aloud your own subordination, that just repeats again: ‘you have all the power, sir. I am in your hands.’

Wow! This bears reading and thinking about, am going to digest it.

A Statutory Public Enquiry would be my idea of a win.

An Enquiry that looked at how our democracy has been undermined, that looked at evidence of the effects of legislation including the GRA, the effects of any future legislation, that looked at the impartiality or lack in our public services and its impact on women and girls. I would also want the enquiry to look at Trans-healthcare using real evidence and a look at how trans-rights could be enhanced without affecting women adversely. I would want a real in-depth look at language and its impact especially on women and girls.

There's lots more I would want to include but it would be out in the open, no hiding and the lies and obfuscation shown for what they are. Then if this enquiry finds women's rights are not being trampled on and there are no adverse effects, then I would, (so long as I had trust and it was all public) bow to the conclusions. However, I would expect all trans-rights activists, Stonewall, Caroline Noakes et all to also abide by the decisions.

@timeisnotaline

Everyone’s said it all- science sanity and factual data, with safety for women. Honestly I would also happily add that any man who has sexually assaulted a woman with his penis is not permitted to transition and identify as a woman. The consequences of people’s actions can limit their future choices and I’d vote for this to be such a case.

any man who has sexually assaulted a woman with his penis is not permitted to transition and identify as a woman

yeah. so much this. I wouldn't even add "with his penis". Rape and sexual assault to disqualify any man to "identify as" a woman, always, no matter what weapon is used.

@highame

A Statutory Public Enquiry would be my idea of a win.

An Enquiry that looked at how our democracy has been undermined, that looked at evidence of the effects of legislation including the GRA, the effects of any future legislation, that looked at the impartiality or lack in our public services and its impact on women and girls. I would also want the enquiry to look at Trans-healthcare using real evidence and a look at how trans-rights could be enhanced without affecting women adversely. I would want a real in-depth look at language and its impact especially on women and girls.

There's lots more I would want to include but it would be out in the open, no hiding and the lies and obfuscation shown for what they are. Then if this enquiry finds women's rights are not being trampled on and there are no adverse effects, then I would, (so long as I had trust and it was all public) bow to the conclusions. However, I would expect all trans-rights activists, Stonewall, Caroline Noakes et all to also abide by the decisions.

That is interesting ...

I think that I and many people like me would find that idea to be a positive step forward.

I'm never too sure about the language thing ... people will say they are trying to be inclusive by using terms like 'Birth Parent' and 'Chest Feeding' ... But it never sounds inclusive to me.

But maybe that's just me ...

Question (feel free to ignore if you prefer)

Is that something (Public Enquiry) you would campaign for ? Is this a GC mainstream idea or just idle thought on your part ?

I particularly like the idea that such a 'Enquiry' would be binding on all parties.

Thanks for that

I would campaign for this but I would need to be sure that the parameters, the balance of who gave evidence and that everything was questioned rigorously. Too often glossing over the surface has become a part of this debate. I refer to the Judiciary, the media, the Politicians, the educators. All bear responsibility and I want to see them questioned in front of a public enquiry.

Not an idle thought on my part, my thinking on this subject is never idle. I don't believe this is part of current GC thinking or campaigning but the mess we are currently in, means it may be the only thing that can save us, from what's happening in the US because we seem to be importing a shed load of their shit think

Is that something (Public Enquiry) you would campaign for ? Is this a GC mainstream idea or just idle thought on your part ?

As far as I understand organisations like Women's Place and Fair Play for Women have been campaigning for more transparency and evidence based policy for years. Sport England have just published the results of their enquiry into trans participation in Sport, but this was immediately rejected by Stonewall with no evidence or research to explain why.

You are never going to be able to have one public enquiry that settles any matter that relates to rights once and for all because it's an issue that is always evolving. For instance the pandemic has had a huge effect on rights and equality. I also don't see how a public enquiry can be binding. It is just an investigation of a situation as it stands at the current time. Only legislation is binding and that can be changed.

Women will just always need to be able to talk about sex and its consequences.

However the biggest barrier to having a public enquiry at the moment is that many of the opposition parties support policies that suggest it is transphobic to even recognise a conflict of rights, and many public bodies don't collect statistics that could inform evidence based policy - e.g. sex of people who commit crimes. A great deal of energy and resources were required just to ensure that sex was recorded in the last census. Somebody else can confirm, but I don't this issue has been settled in Scotland.

So no, when we talk about the need for more information and research, that isn't just idle talk.

If you want to learn more about the lack of sex based data and how that relates to Women's Rights, you should read 'Invisible Women' by Caroline Criado Perez.

Thanks for adding that merrymouse. There are many issues but I would like to see a Public Enquiry, especially if this edifice crumbles. It has been important enough for us to ask for answers and expect to get them.