Sex/Gender Wars - What would be a win?

[joolzfromyork]

As the Title ...

What's a win? for you individually?

I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...

It's reasonable to believe that the majority view falls somewhere between these two points ... but where?

There is no real consensus that has emerged which all GC people subscribe to ...

So, I wonder ... what's a win? what would make you believe that this issue had been solved/dealt with to your satisfaction ?

Anyone like to have a stab at this one?

The question involves no trickery, Honest opinions - however blunt - are sought (Hopefully the mods will adopt a light touch ...) but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN, I would like to understand better what people 'really' want, as distinct from what the loudest voices claim they want ... what do you want to happen?

Of course, since I am asking the question, it goes without saying that extra credit can be gained through the use of 'Flippancy' and 'Sarcasm' ... so, by all means, Have at it.

But if anyone could/would have a go at answering the question, I'd be grateful

As far as I'm aware, for Trans people, transition is life saving. There was one case where someone regretted it, among 10,000s, 100,000s. To deny transition will lead to God knows what for every individual that can't. A life ruined at best

A friend transitioned fully years ago and I asked what effect it had, her reply was that she finally felt content. It wasn't life threatening, it improved her mental health. I think the choice is a good think but with major counselling (which my friend had and she played the system, unapologetically). Cancer and it's treatment does not result in contentment. The result in a lifetime of anxiety

I'm sorry, I don't buy any argument about a study. It doesn't sound very likely to me, and I don't know anything about this study, when it was done, or how accurate it was. Trans people are overwhelmingly happier when they can transition, and I don't think anyone should deny another human being happiness in life.

I think it's cruel to deny a human their happiness.

I think it's cruel to deny a human their happiness.

What if "a human's" depends on things which affect others negatively? Whose happiness is more important?

I'm sorry, I don't buy any argument about a study. It doesn't sound very likely to me, and I don't know anything about this study, when it was done, or how accurate it was

Perhaps you should look into it, that's what reasonable people would do.

I really like lions that swim….

What would be a win is for people to accept biological reality and that it isn’t personal. My DH didn’t get the arse that he had to be DBS checked to work as a cub leader. He didn’t start stomping around going on about “but I wouldn’t hurt children!! This is all so unfair, they hate me, he accepted that as ‘some’ adults had hurt children it was necessary for all adults that worked with them to be checked. It wasn’t personal to him

It would be nice if men how we they present grasped this about safeguarding instead of defaulting immediately to “you hate me”

Have something healthy for breakfast, and come back when you can say something intelligent.

The acceptance of a third identity with its own culture and definitions. This would enable safe spaces, sport and opportunities to be created to recognise and value their achievements in their own right.

@Nefelibata33

I'm sorry, I don't buy any argument about a study. It doesn't sound very likely to me, and I don't know anything about this study, when it was done, or how accurate it was. Trans people are overwhelmingly happier when they can transition, and I don't think anyone should deny another human being happiness in life.

I think it's cruel to deny a human their happiness.

I notice by 'people' you actually mean 'males' here.

So you're ok with denying female humans happiness? This isn't inclusion, this is just massive sexism.

I'm sorry, I don't buy any argument about a study. It doesn't sound very likely to me, and I don't know anything about this study, when it was done, or how accurate it was.

So you don’t look up the study. You don’t try to find out more about the methodology, the number of people studied, the reputation of the journal it was published in, or anything about it. You just reject it without any knowledge of it. Because Nodebate.

You keep your eyes shut and push your fingers in your ears. That lets you keep saying the same untrue things and keep feeling virtuous.

Do you understand that you are harming yourself as well as others?

@Nefelibata33

As far as I'm aware, for Trans people, transition is life saving. There was one case where someone regretted it, among 10,000s, 100,000s. To deny transition will lead to God knows what for every individual that can't. A life ruined at best

Another long term European study published in 2017 showed that even after hormonal and surgical transition as adults that 8-9% of transitioners had reverted back to living as their birth sex.

Your numbers don’t stack up. Particularly the hyperbolic handwaving of 1 in 100 000’s.

And you seem to have very little curiosity about the lives and futures of the cohort that makes up the majority of the current young transitioner numbers. That of teenaged females, a very large proportion of whom have underlying comorbidities.

Don’t worry though, you join a long line of posters who also like to forget that groups needs. Although it is hard to accept, I guess, just where this discrimination against these young females will lead and that you supported it.

people here who want to restrict aspects of trans people's lives that have literally no affect them

I am still waiting for blueberry to come back and explain what restrictions they think we are discussing that literally has no affect on women and children.

But I guess it was just another unfounded and hyperbolic snipe from the sideline.

I’m not surprised that women and girls are considered acceptable collateral damage, if we are considered at all.

I’m not even surprised that the same people think we ought to accept our role as collateral damage.

But I am surprised that they think we do accept that.

Nefelibata33

Just adding this particular study here too. You might not have actually read this one. But you should. It is linked to the upcoming WPATH guidelines review.

Just so you are aware that in defending transition for everyone, you are also advocating for children to transition. You claim it is life saving… yet Baker and team reviewed 20 studies on trans treatments and mental health and when it came to adolescents, the findings were that there is no convincing evidence of improvement to mental health at all.

Baker, K. E., et al, (2021) Hormone Therapy, Mental Health and Quality of Life Among Transgender People: A Systematic Review. Journal of the Endocrine Society.

academic.oup.com/jes/article/5/4/bvab011/6126016

Quality of Life

Among adolescents, a mixed-gender prospective cohort (n = 50) showed no difference in QOL scores after a year of endocrine interventions, which included combinations of GnRH analogues and estrogen or testosterone formulations [30]. No study found that hormone therapy decreased QOL scores. We conclude that hormone therapy may improve QOL among transgender people. The strength of evidence for this conclusion is low due to concerns about bias in study designs, imprecision in measurement because of small sample sizes, and confounding by factors such as gender-affirming surgery status.

And this under Depression

Among adolescents, 2 mixed-gender prospective cohorts (n = 50 and n = 23, respectively) showed improvements in depression scores after 1 year of treatment with GnRH analogues and estrogen or testosterone formulations (both P < 0.001) [30, 38]. Another prospective study reported that BDI scores improved almost by half among adolescents (n = 41) after a mean of 1.88 years of treatment with GnRH analogues to delay puberty (P = 0.004) [34]. The overall improvement after several subsequent years of testosterone or estrogen therapy in this cohort (n = 32) was smaller, however, resulting in no significant change from baseline [35]. No study found that hormone therapy increased depression.

Anxiety

Among adolescents, 1 prospective study saw mean anxiety scores in a mixed-gender group (n = 23) improve from 33.0 ± 7.2 to 18.5 ± 8.4 after 1 year (P < 0.001) [38], but another reported no changes in anxiety after approximately 2 years of puberty delay treatment with GnRH analogues and 4 years of hormone therapy (n = 32) [35].

Suicide

The risk of bias for this study was serious due to the difficulty of identifying appropriate comparison groups and uncontrolled confounding by surgery status and socioeconomic variables such as unemployment. We cannot draw any conclusions on the basis of this single study about whether hormone therapy affects death by suicide among transgender people

@Nefelibata33

Have something healthy for breakfast, and come back when you can say something intelligent.

It really doesn't take long for the mask to slip, does it?

You should take your own advice Nefelibata33 and while your doing so have a ponder on these statements you made:

I'm not going to tell anyone how to live their lives, I don't think anyone should have the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.

Think really hard and you will see that there are many ways in which we are all told to a greater or lesser degree how to live our lives.

I don't think anyone should deny another human being happiness in life.

Again, think very hard about this, there are myriad reasons why one human being's happiness is to a greater or lesser degree not allowed completely free rein.

I think it's cruel to deny a human their happiness.

Apply some critical thinking to this, I am sure you know what critical thinking is, and muse upon the ways in which one person's happiness can be and is curtailed when it negatively impacts on other humans.

I think we can safely say that some posters have a very skewed sense of their own intelligence when they post statements like this:

Have something healthy for breakfast, and come back when you can say something intelligent.

@Helleofabore

I think we can safely say that some posters have a very skewed sense of their own intelligence when they post statements like this:

Have something healthy for breakfast, and come back when you can say something intelligent.

To be fair based on their contribution to this thread I think that poster was just sending a reminder to themself.

And previous other threads purpleboy to be fair.

Makes me think of my grandmother, saying sweetly to someone in a shop when I was a kid "If you're going to try to patronise someone dear, learn how to do it first."

Other than stopping the prescribing of harmful drugs to children, I'm not seeking to change or constrain anything that trans people choose to do. GC feminism is not about trans people's rights. It's about the right of women to have their sex-based rights and identity properly recognised and protected by the Law and society.

@Nefelibata33

As far as I'm aware, for Trans people, transition is life saving. There was one case where someone regretted it, among 10,000s, 100,000s. To deny transition will lead to God knows what for every individual that can't. A life ruined at best

Hold on a sec.

You posted these figures with no reference as to where they came from.

Someone else says studies etc and you say you don't trust studies?

Yet you quoted I assume a study when you posted those numbers.

???

Additionally. Most transpeople do not have genital surgery and that's totally reasonable. It's hugely invasive, in an area with loads of major blood vessels etc. Risky. Recovery must be awful. Results are far from guaranteed. Potential loss of sexual function. Removal of testes/ ovaries is huge hormonally. I know for women- instant menopause, loads of impacts. Really big negative impacts. For men it must have consequences. It's irreversible.

When you talk about transition you mean genital surgery? Or something else?

And being back to 'banning transition' is... I mean why?

I haven't seen anyone who has ever said that adults should be banned from paying for these particular cosmetic procedures.

They are adults. Adults have all sorts of cosmetic surgery including very unusual. Adults get tattooed from head to toe. I once met a man in a pub who had full body much of head/ face. And a fully tattooed cock. The tattoo (he said) grew into foliage and a flower at the um. Top. When erect.

I'm good friends with an ex piercer who once did one of the most pierced men in England. He apparently had so many and so deep/ across cock that he had to piss into a jam jar or it went everywhere.

Each to their own. Adults.

Kids, different. Very different.

But the question originally was do you want to ban surgical transition. OP is adult.

Well no. I can't think of seeing that position anywhere.

So why does it keep being raised????

What is good to see Nefelibata33, is that at least Dr Hilary Cass has recognised that there is simply not enough evidence of the benefits of hormonal therapy for adolescents and that the current adolescent cohort has changed to being dominated by females. Which needs thorough research as a ‘one size fits all’ solution is harmful.

cass.independent-review.uk/entry-5-evidence-epidemiology-october-2021/

I am very glad that the NHS will no longer be able to just ignore it all and their poor record keeping as you seem to advocate (because of 1 detransitioner you say).

I'm sorry, I don't buy any argument about a study.

There's a reason it's called an ideology. 😁