Sex/Gender Wars - What would be a win?

[joolzfromyork]

As the Title ...

What's a win? for you individually?

I read here .. on Twatter and one or two other places and it is clear that for some GC Women (and Men) a win would be the banning of Puberty blockers being given to those you see as being children...

At the other extreme ... the banning completely of Transition and any medical interventions to help Transsexual people...

It's reasonable to believe that the majority view falls somewhere between these two points ... but where?

There is no real consensus that has emerged which all GC people subscribe to ...

So, I wonder ... what's a win? what would make you believe that this issue had been solved/dealt with to your satisfaction ?

Anyone like to have a stab at this one?

The question involves no trickery, Honest opinions - however blunt - are sought (Hopefully the mods will adopt a light touch ...) but I am interested because I remain convinced that a path to compromise exists ... and whilst we won't find it here on MN, I would like to understand better what people 'really' want, as distinct from what the loudest voices claim they want ... what do you want to happen?

Of course, since I am asking the question, it goes without saying that extra credit can be gained through the use of 'Flippancy' and 'Sarcasm' ... so, by all means, Have at it.

But if anyone could/would have a go at answering the question, I'd be grateful

@334bu

As a transwoman joolz, what would you consider to be a win?

A world in which I can continue to live and work without fear of losing my rights.

Are my rights incompatible with yours? ... No!

I have posted elsewhere on this site (some years ago) that I tend to be careful about which spaces I use and how I use them

I could not pass in a dark coal cellar at midnight ... I know this (there is a limit to my delusion )

So, I also know that my appearance in the changing rooms at the local gym or swimming baths would cause some women a level of discomfort (and I am Post-Op) consequently, I don't go there ... ever.

Because I am not a completely insensitive idiot.

I don't even use the changing rooms at M&S etc any more ... just buy online (saves pissing off some poor shop worker who doesn't have a choice in the matter).

Do I use female toilets ? yes and no

Yes when I am at work (factory work)

No at all other times (cos I live in york ... and the local Authority has changed almost all the public toilets to be Single occupancy/multi gender. Works really well (other than costing me an arm and a leg for a widdle - 50p! a time)

MrMrsJones made a post that I could get on board with ...

There are compromises that can be made

(waits for the slapping thats coming my way because I use the female toilets in my workplace)

And my final point. Around children esp.

Speaking from my experience as someone born with a physical abnormality that had a moderate effect on my mobility. Was painful. Spent much of secondary school in and out of children's hosp having multiple surgeries that meant long recovery etc and then back again.

When you are a child who is different. Can't join in properly. Is in pain. No one else can really understand. Feeling like a bit of an onlooker outsider sometimes or a lot.

Then the attention and care and focus from docs etc feels really good. You are important in that time. You can talk about your issues and they listen. They want to help. It makes you feel, special?

I mean this is all from my POV and won't be everyone but I know it's common.

Surgery. You get away from school. You go somewhere different. You tell school etc you're going to hosp. You get sympathy, good lucks. Maybe a card signed by the class etc. That's also nice.

And in hosp you are looked after. You are important. People come and ask how you're getting on etc. In a children's hospital- as a teen and those years. You'd be on a children's ward. Mine it was other children in for unusual things and in for a while. It was sociable, fun (once well enough to get out of bed in my case wheelchair). They were all in the same boat. We had all sorts of fun. Even with the pain uncertainty etc.

I liked it. A lot.

For many children who are or feel like they don't fit. Those feelings should NOT be underestimated. I've not seen this flagged hardly at all. Most people haven't been there.

This is for me a really big issue with the children going for assistance around gender.

I'd like to see counselling help for people to accept being gender-non-conforming without denying their biological sex.

And children to get absolutely no crap about "wrong bodies" etc.

I dread to think what will happen to girls' and women's sports as there begin to be increasing numbers of young trans people who have not gone through their own-sex puberty.
The case will be made that these transgirls & transwomen should be in females' sports - and so should any other trans-identified males as it's only fair.

Joolz last post of yours.

Women who are pushing back are thinking of all women and girls in the UK. And elsewhere in the world.

About women in mental health inpatient units.

About teen girls using communal changing.

About women and girls whose religion prevents certain mixed sex things. And those who feel unable to for many other reasons. Or who simply for obvious reasons- doing certain things in mixed sex facilities is just strongly socially and long term a no. And of course risk.

I mean so many women and girls. They all matter.

On here when people come to question put points etc it's invariably about them. Their situation as an individual.

It's always well I should be able to do this because X and I want to talk about why you don't want me doing that.

It's not about you! It's not personal. At all.

Regarding medical transition, as that was your original question, it isn’t a matter of winning or losing from my point of view as a woman who has no interest in transitioning. Winning and losing, if you can call it that, is really only important in terms of those directly affected. How it affects laws and rights is a separate issue.

So in those terms, a win would be if proper research was carried out which showed genuinely whether transitioning was beneficial or not, and, of course, open-minded research into whether it’s possible that a less medicalised, less invasive treatment might be found that works as well or better, should be ongoing.

My opinion (for what it’s worth) is that transitioning was introduced by a quack, was taken up by a reputable medical university (Johns Hopkins) found to be unsuccessful and dropped, but then took off anyway, despite there being very little evidence for its effectiveness. While all that is rather negative, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is never useful. There might be people it does help. The problem is that nobody actually knows.

I am, of course aware, that anecdotally there are some transitioners who feel it has made life better for them, but there’s an extent to which anecdote needs to be backed up by evidence and weighed against negative side-effects, both on the person (and, to an extent on wider society where it has an effect). Anecdotally, you could probably find a good number of alcoholics who would tell you drinking makes them happier. That doesn’t mean excessive drinking a lot is good for you, or for society in general. And I think the nature of transitioning, and the lazy assumption made by doctors, that it would be fine for their male patients to use women’s spaces mean that the effects on others are wider than with most other medical treatment pathways.

My suspicion is that there is such a scandal brewing over child transition that it might well spill over to the rest of the transition industry. It may be that transitioning does genuinely help a small number of patients, but because of the astonishingly poor way that trials have been carried out, and the absolute hysteria created when alternative, lower impact treatments are discussed as a possibility, it is almost impossible now for decent, untainted clinical trials to be carried out.

So I think in the end, there will be no winners. Rather there will be a big mess and probably a scandal on the scale of the lobotomy scandal, or perhaps even bigger. And that is not necessarily because transitioning is entirely negative, but because lobby groups have encouraged a willing medical establishment into performing a treatment that might be suitable for a minuscule number of people onto any number of people for whom it is wholly damaging.

Nondescriptname

A massive issue is that if you go on puberty blockers before puberty has got going. And then onto cross sex hormones.

You will not go though/ fully go through puberty.

This affects growth, brain development, emotional development and god knows what else.

To give a girl (female obv now need to specify...) puberty blockers at the start of puberty. Means very young. For my DDs, 8.5 years old.

1. That's just no way old enough to even start to understand what it means.

That single sex spaces remain so, see above, you use the toilets facilities that you were born.

Transmen who pass, and transwomen, to use the men's - in instances where toilets are shared spaces with cubicles.

Other issue in eg USA is getting people onto lifetime medication and surgery is VERY VERY lucrative. Esp if you can start when they're children.

@Nondescriptname

Transmen who pass, and transwomen, to use the men's ...

But that's not what people are arguing for is it?

Transmen who pass? really ? whos gonna make that call? and under what circumstances ?
How would the biological reality be proved ? over and again? What about Transmen who don't pass? who says so ?

so many questions ...

OP why post? None of what you've said is acceptable particularly contradicts what GC women want by and large. You seem to agree.

Have you posted on a TRA forum (on Reddit or Twitter) asking what they would regard as a win, what they would compromise on?

A win for me would be acceptance that trans women are not women, and never can be. And transmen are not men.

Thank you for your candour joolz. Unfortunately your consideration of women's rights is not one held by many who are demanding that women change the language they use to describe themselves and open up their spaces to people of the opposite sex.

@Nondescriptname

That single sex spaces remain so, see above, you use the toilets facilities that you were born.

Transmen who pass, and transwomen, to use the men's - in instances where toilets are shared spaces with cubicles.

I don't think that's an accepted GC view tbh. Trans men in male prisons for example - just no. They're female and on the whole much weaker and more vulnerable.

@titchy

OP why post? None of what you've said is acceptable particularly contradicts what GC women want by and large. You seem to agree.

Have you posted on a TRA forum (on Reddit or Twitter) asking what they would regard as a win, what they would compromise on?

This is a genuinely interesting question. Whenever I ask I'm howled down as an evil Terf, I wonder if it'd get more consideration from a member of the community?

A win for me will be everyone recognising that equality and human rights legislation needs to be upheld; not written off, or rewritten to suit an agenda.

It is absolutely beyond the pale that a movement that calls itself a human rights movement has been able to do so much damage to the rights of women.

Dismantling the legislation that protects us all is not a win.

[quote joolzfromyork]@Nondescriptname

Transmen who pass, and transwomen, to use the men's ...

But that's not what people are arguing for is it?

Transmen who pass? really ? whos gonna make that call? and under what circumstances ?
How would the biological reality be proved ? over and again? What about Transmen who don't pass? who says so ?

so many questions ...[/quote]
This has all been covered on multiple threads.

Let's talk about prisons instead.

What are your thoughts joolz?

In general.

You I'm sure would say that transitioned trans people should go to relevant one they have transitioned to.

(Putting aside the fact this is not how it is. Transition/ GRC not required).

Do you think TM should go to male prison. Because they are men and it would be cruel not to?

A win for me would be if we started discussing women’s rights again in a way that actually acknowledged that women have bodies and are not some kind of AI.

So we could actually look at women’s situations in a holistic way.

All the rest is not a win but just reinstating basic rights.

The issues most are worried about are... Broader? Thinking about consequences that are not you know. Bogs. And I can't see why anyone would be against an adult having cosmetic surgery. They might have opinions as many do with all sorts of cosmetic surgery. And NHS resources are a big topic full stop.

The things I'd be really interested to hear your views on are-

1. The redefinition of woman girl. Also female is going at the moment. The argument is that's not a problem in any way. That woman girl has never meant sex anyway (do you believe that?).

Do you feel there's any issues with having no words available to refer to... People with vaginas as a distinct group? That's 3 billion people or so. As a group in terms of issues needs oppression atrocities etc? How do you feel about terms like people with cervixes? Do you feel happy with eg. People with vaginas in Afghanistan banned from working?

1. The largely promoted idea that. Internal gender ID is the parameter that anything split (previously) by sex should go by. Gender presentation is unrelated to gender ID. Anyone in women's facilities should be assumed to be in the right place. IF they do anything illegal then they can be reported afterwards.

I mean there's more but that's a couple of important ones.

I think a lot of people would be happy with something like what you suggest joolz. They might have specific tweaks but the basic sense seems like a good start. And that is here on MN so I don't think you'd find people overall would be hugely adverse.

It seems to be the TRAs have really overplayed their hand and there is a very high chance now that they will end up with much less than that.

That being said, I'm very much with AnyOld. We can't talk about a bunch of legal and administrative solutions being the answer, because it's really a problem about ideas and about health and about medicine. The best outcome would be to gain real insights into the origins of severe sex dysphoria in adults and prevent it and find treatments to resolve it where it occurs. For people to feel comfortable in their own body, without drugs, trying to pass (or not pass) as the other sex, without surgery, is what we should want.

None of the real psychological or physical research tells us there are a class of people who are innately trans, so if we use that way of thinking as a model, it's not going to turn out well for the people actually involved. It will be harmful to them and it won't be the best outcome they could hope for. As for people who are GNC in terms of clothing or interests or just whether they feel like they enjoy femininity or masculinity, medicalising that is crazy.

Should say not trying to pass, above.

No not prepared to compromise anything that affects women and children adversely . So it’s a no to any men, with or without penis/ certificate who wish to access in particular prisons, hospital beds, changing rooms. Let’s repeal the GRA and stop saying TWAW and TMAM. Revert to the sex of offenders and crimes committed . Recognise the harm that this ideology has done to women and girls.

A win?

No coercion of people in vulnerable positions, whether that is children persuaded they need invasive and/or harmful medical intervention or women having their private spaces invaded by males. Also, it turns out, young gay women and men have been having their sexual boundaries ignored. Just no.

And joolz I have no issue with your attitude. Can't say the same for a lot of activists.

As for York, visited with severely autistic Ds2, a few years back. Spent an hour searching for a working disabled loo when his pad was sodden. Eventually found one after several laps of Brown's. I can guarantee that if we visited again, the disabled loo situation would be just as shit.

Sorry joolz missed your things you want post.

Much of it is aok.

Thing is. That's not what's being demanded is it. So what anyone thinks of your personal views is an interesting conversation but in the end nothing to do with the demands that have already been met (in the background quietly) and the further demands now.

You say you get flack from both sides. I'm sure you do!

Others feel as you do. Other trans people. Has there been any noise about organising? Supporting each other online? Having your own space to talk? Getting stuck in as a group rather than as individuals?