Dominic Cummings tweet

[Mollyollydolly]

When things have reached the stage that you agree with Dominic Cummings. I'll never forgive Labour and Stonewall.

a stopped clock is right twice a day

This is meaningless.

Quite. It's pretty daft to think that an intelligent person whose politics you don't like won't have a single opinion you agree with on anything.

The 'stopped clock' saying is oft-used on MN and indeed has appeared at least twice already on this thread.

It genuinely puzzles me. I usually want to reply, 'And what?' but thought it was just me being awkward.

I suppose it's just a way of pointing out that just because somebody's right about one thing, that doesn't mean they aren't still an arse, and wrong about most things. But it's worth looking at it the other way around - just because you disagree with someone about most things, that doesn't mean they are never right about anything!

@ArabellaScott

I should have RTFT, shouldn't I?!

Carrie can fuck off. That's absurd behaviour. At least Scotland's reigning couple were voted for in some shape or form.

I don't recall ever having the opportunity to (not) vote for Peter Morrell

The stopped clock thing doesn’t work for Cummings though. A stopped clock consistently says one thing (eg it’s 12:27) and is correct twice a day. Cummings is not constantly going on about trans issues because he doesn’t really give a shit.

If Talcum X/LittleOJ ever accidentally tweeted something sensible about women’s rights the stopped clock analogy might work, but probably not, because Little OJ’s output is consistently misogynistic and I don’t think that will be right, not even twice a day.

Carrie was a (escaped) victim of worboys wasn't she?

What are her thoughts on male prisoners ID as female to be placed in women's prisons I wonder? 🤔

It's more a case of "If the Christian Right came out in favour of Breakfast, would you denounce cornflakes?"

The use of Talcum X in reference to OJ really doesn't work.

*Now this is interesting. Look, Dominic Cummings, a man aware enough of the matter to have opinions on it, has no idea what "trans man" with the space means. He's parsed it using the rules of standard grammar and concluded it means natal male with a transgender identity.

We keep saying that this is an issue in surveys and that when you ask random members of the public whether they think "trans women" should use communal changing rooms with females, they think they are being asked if transmen should have to go in the men's!

Very good point, Purgatory. I’m going to express that more clearly in future, always saying “men who call themselves women”. We do need to be clear that we’re not suggesting gender- nonconforming women aren’t women.

@Needmoresleep

a stopped clock is right twice a day

This is meaningless.

First, even if you loathe hom most people would agree that Cummings is intelligent and takes time to reasearch voter intentions.

Second even if you disagree with someone on a whole range of things, there are bound to be some things you agree on.

The current approach used by some of the left of "othering" and blocking people is almost infantile. It would be far more interesting and constructive to challenge and debate.

Yes I would agree with this. I think a lot of very negative things about DC - mainly that he's a terrifyingly cold, lying sociopath who is very interested in manipulating the mechanisms of politics without giving a second thought to the people on the ground who are affected by his scheming and plotting.

I don't however think he's unintelligent.

Quite. It's pretty daft to think that an intelligent person whose politics you don't like won't have a single opinion you agree with on anything.

The thing is, anyone who is normal and sane knows that the Stonewall stance is ridiculous . The people who are going along with self-ID, when the harms it causes in women's sport, prisons etc. are so obvious, are a mix of out-and-out misogynists, self-styled progressives who will unthinkingly adopt the current fashionable cause, and cowards too frightened to stand out against the crowd.

I really think that apart from the obvious woman-haters (the Harrops and Haydens of the world), most people currently pushing the ideology fall into camps 2 or 3. They have been told that trans rights are exactly like gay rights, so the accept that uncritically. Or they know that it's nonsense but are too frightened to say so (much of the Labour Party leadership, I suspect).

So the people speaking out against this are either those who don't experience social pressure to support it (generally people with right-wing political views) or people who have the courage to speak out regardless (mostly, it turns out, older women who no longer have fucks to give).

Of all the names for Owen Jones, my favourite is Squealer, taken from Animal Farm. It's the crossover of characteristics that works for me.

@VladmirsPoutine

The use of Talcum X in reference to OJ really doesn't work.

Ha! Well I can't claim credit for it, but of course it works. OJ is an overgrown man-toddler, (hence the talcum powder reference) who thinks he is an amazing social justice warrior (hence the allusion to Malcolm X - and of course you might or might not think that Malcolm X was important in advancing civil rights in the US, but that doesn't affect the allusion). Finally, Malcolm rhymes with Talcum. What's not to like?

It's interesting to see where DC thinks the LP have gone wrong in terms of media interactions. I wouldn't take much that he says as being principled, he's too Machiavellian for that, but that is the kind of thing that he seems to have some insight into.

While I am not naturally inclined to strongman leaders, I tend to agree that Starmer has a problem with party discipline and the same with the media. Mind you I'd rather see what the party members really think on issues like this myself.

I think the original comment in the OP is interesting on a few accounts. I don't really find it odd that the spouse of a political figure will have some influence on that person, that goes without saying. There are lines that ought to be drawn around that but realistically it's going to be a factor. But if the comment is meant to be directed to Carrie, my feeling is that it's a personal issue for Cummings for some reason, he sees an advantage for him or is enjoying needling her.

But it's also interesting given the very common accusations that BJ is a racist homophobe and that this is because the Tory party is full of racist homophobes. Whereas here the claim is that actually they are being too influenced by SW and so-call progressive perspectives.

@nauticant

Of all the names for Owen Jones, my favourite is Squealer, taken from Animal Farm. It's the crossover of characteristics that works for me.

i'm enjoying 'the leftwing Katie Hopkins' at the moment. it captures his 'rentagob with absolutely no in depth thought' tendencies nicely

Corgi, I agree.

I think most men have been silent because they think the issue is just silly. They know that gender identity is different from biological sex, and whilst you might be able to change the former, you can't change the latter. However they have no skin in the game and no interest in taking on someone else's cause.

Many of the men who have spoken up have done so from a free speech perspective. They get that #nodebate is damaging, and as journalists etc, they do have skin in the game.

Cummings always strikes me as a political nerd. Intelligent, but without empathy, and focussed on the process, rather than outcomes. A lot of his understanding of what people think, unlike other commentators who live within their Twitter and other bubbles, comes from research. This is his strength, and why people are silly to write him off as a "stopped clock". Liz Truss' popularity is shooting up within the party. He will know why. There are so many policies that Labour could have attacked the Tories on, to pave the way to be seen as a credible alternative government, but no. Their leaders dare not even confirm who has a cervix.

Cummings does not care. He is not a feminist, and is only GC in that he naturally, along with about 90% of the popular, believes in biological sex. (If the old Stonewall poll of a few years back still holds good.) It is an open goal, and he just scored a sitter.

I know, but don't particularly like, a senior lobbyist. The sort of person who knows everyone and who you pay to make those introductions. I find him very old boys club. I ran into him the other day, just as he was about to head off to lunch with one of the great and good, and asked him what he thought of the cabinet reshuffle particularly Liz Truss' promotion. He was scathing and seemed completely unable to understand why she is soaring in the polls. (I did not suggest that being GC might help as I expect he would have been dismissive, as though he makes some effort to be polite I am not someone he would consider as on his level, and he has probably already discarded gender as a non issue.) Its interesting. Sunak, Truss, Patel and to a lesser extent Javid, and even Johnson do not come across as paid up members of the traditional Tory white male corridors of power. A bit like Thatcher, before she came to power, one or more may be underestimated. I also think that Cummings does listen and observe, has a good idea of what potential Tory voters are looking for, and who is likely to deliver.

Thanks for sharing that Need, it’s really interesting.

But if the comment is meant to be directed to Carrie, my feeling is that it's a personal issue for Cummings for some reason

It's a long-standing grievance:

www.theweek.co.uk/108650/does-carrie-symonds-have-too-much-influence-boris-johnson

Apparently it was Cummings who came up with the nickname "Princess Nut Nut" for Carrie Johnson.

I have no problem believing that Cummings is instinctively misogynistic, and his dislike of Carrie comes across as nasty.

That said, I like his, apparent, nickname for Boris. Trolley. Supposedly because Boris is like a supermarket trolley. You start steering him in one direction, and then, without warning, he shoots off in another.

@nauticant

But if the comment is meant to be directed to Carrie, my feeling is that it's a personal issue for Cummings for some reason

It's a long-standing grievance:

www.theweek.co.uk/108650/does-carrie-symonds-have-too-much-influence-boris-johnson

Apparently it was Cummings who came up with the nickname "Princess Nut Nut" for Carrie Johnson.

Ha! Though in a way why not CS, it's not like anyone voted for DC either?

I'm more interested though in whether this comment, now, has some strategic purpose. What's his angle?

It is the logical terminology though - men who are trans should be called trans men, as they are and remain male. Then I could get on board with TWAW!

This has always been my perspective. I remember how flummoxed and outraged I was when I first realised that the word “woman”, in any noun form, was being used to denote some males. The term “ladyboy”, for all the issues with it (and, more importantly, with the culture it comes from), is at least more honest and closer to reality as the “lady” part is used adjectivally and it’s clear that the salient noun is “boy”, ie correctly denoting the sex of that individual.

Of course the whole point of “trans woman”, or even “transwoman”, is to obscure the fact that biologically male trans people are, in fact, male. It’s not an accident, it’s not just being polite; it’s a completely deliberate, ideologically motivated decision to linguistically divest a male person completely of his maleness and therefore make his “inclusion” into the female estate a natural embracing of a type of “woman”, rather than the male appropriation of womanhood.

It’s a big part of the concerted effort to redefine biologically male trans people out of the oppressor sex class, male, and into the oppressed sex class, female, so that biologically male trans people can be seen as a vulnerable, marginalised subset of women, not of men, and therefore MORE vulnerable and marginalised than actual women.

Which both disguises the fact that they are, actually, of the sex class that has privilege (and male physicality) and creates the fiction that (actually vulnerable, marginalised) biologically female people have privilege relative to them. It completely turns reality on its head, and it’s been one of the principle mechanisms through which genderist ideology has been advanced with such success.

Of course those who have this agenda don’t want biologically male trans people to be known as trans men. It’s much too honest and clear.

And imagine the catastrophic effect on their slogan in chief:
“Trans Men Are Women!” blows the whole thing wide open, really, doesn’t it.

Like so many others on here (everyone on here?) I’m no fan of DC, not in the slightest, but I’m still glad he’s said this, and it’s very, very interesting that women would be suspended or banned from Twitter for saying the same, but he isn’t.

Anyone who doesn’t get how real and visceral misogyny still is in the western world today is just walking around with their eyes closed.

Very interesting, Needmoresleep

Anyone who doesn’t get how real and visceral misogyny still is in the western world today is just walking around with their eyes closed

I was genuinely shocked at how the senior lobbyist dismissed Truss. Presumably because he did not consider her clubbable. She went to Oxford from a state comprehensive and had a good career before politics. But a woman. Regardless of their politics, I assume Kemi and Priti, have even tougher battles. Yet despite this, the Tories track record on appointing senior women and ethnic minorities is at least the equal of Labour's. I doubt the Tories have the monopoly on misogyny.

In terms of Cummings, I suspect he is more misanthropic than misogynist. He is capable of weird feuds with men as well as women. Obviously with Carrie he plays on her status as Boris' female partner. I can quite believe that in return she was warning Boris that GC was bad news...most people in her position would. He is intelligent. He is probably not very nice. He is not a politician. I like, however, the fact that he does look outside the Westminster bubble and research issues that are of concern to the electorate. But then I can't understand why Labour, almost wilfully, seem to refuse to listen to their potential voters.

Needmoresleep

"But then I can't understand why Labour, almost wilfully, seem to refuse to listen to their potential voters."

I used to think it was because they were living in an echo chamber of affirmation from their peers and party members, but now I think they really despise the working class and also the poorest in society. Look how they behaved towards Sarah Champion with regard to the child grooming gangs and more recently Rosie Duffield. Anyone who steps out of line, exhibits "wrongthink" will face the fury of the mob.
They are so arrogant, that they will engage in this behaviour, despite the fact that it makes them unelectable. They are in effect, committing political suicide.

Yes, it should be noted that Cummings also has a dismissive nickname for Boris Johnson: trolley (as in supermarket trolley that's all over the shop unless steered firmly).

Maybe Tory grandees don't like Truss's non-standard background:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705445/I-sang-anti-Thatcher-songs-child-admits-new-Conservative-Cabinet-minister-Liz-Truss.html