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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

what does it mean "live as a woman"?

999 replies

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 13:23

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 06/10/2021 14:33

'Refusing to take no for an answer' is an old trope, runs through a lot of rape culture. Sometimes presented as 'romantic', even.

RiverSkater · 06/10/2021 14:43

It's all about a stereotypical appearance which will appeal to the male gaze.

Which is why I don't get drag.

RVN123 · 06/10/2021 15:08

I have often thought that something like Swyers Syndrome must be one of the most difficult DSDs to come to terms with, both for the parents and the child.
I always imagine what I would feel if my own daughter, a girl in every physical way, had failed to menstruate, was taken to the doctor, and subsequent medical intervention found her to be genetically male but with external female sex characteristics.
I sure as hell wouldn't then suddenly make her use male bathrooms, or say she couldn't use female changing rooms etc. I wouldn't think of her as any less than a girl. She has been conditioned (for what of a better word) from birth as a female.
And I'm very TWANW.
I seriously asked myself all these questions when my daughter had failed to start menstruating at 15 and a half years old (she has since started) and it's really different when you think these thoughts about your OWN child, and it's not just some abstract person.
Anyone with daughters I'm sure would feel the same.
But again, DSDs and all their complexities account for 0.18 % of the population. If it were automatically taken out of the equation and TW could no longer use DSDs as some kind of convoluted argument for somehow defining womanhood to admit males, they would have very little left with which to brow beat woman with.

I just wanted to say that I have HUGE sympathy with anyone dealing with Swyers. I know there is a woman on here who has it, and I think about her often.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/10/2021 15:11

That's one of the reasons why people with DSDs have, as individuals and through supporting organisations, requested that they are not discussed, used in conversations like this.

It's a completely different issue and shouldn't be hijacked, as it has been here, to explain, allow anything trans! (not you RVN).

And yet it continues to happen... wonder why?

Datun · 06/10/2021 15:11

Just for the record, If Swyers is the DSD I'm thinking of, there's no way I would ever expect someone with that to use a male facility.

This isn't about purity. It's about women's rights to protection and privacy from men.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/10/2021 15:14

This isn't about purity. It's about women's rights to protection and privacy from men. This.

Don't allow yourself to be distracted. Always question why 'squirrels' are being introduced!

RVN123 · 06/10/2021 15:19

@Datun

Just for the record, If Swyers is the DSD I'm thinking of, there's no way I would ever expect someone with that to use a male facility.

This isn't about purity. It's about women's rights to protection and privacy from men.

I agree, I would never think of anyone with Swyers as male. Some people with Swyers also have uterus and fallopian tubes, and although not able to produce Ova, can become pregnant through IVF with donated eggs. None of that speaks 'male' to me.

And I agree (and have said numerous times in many other threads) that those with DSDs have asked not to be used by the Trans community as an argument for their cause.
I just wanted to voice my support for anyone with a DSD, especially the one Butterfly was referring to (I think).

Jaysmith71 · 06/10/2021 15:22

To Summarise:

How To Live As A Woman:

  1. Be a woman
  2. Breathe
ArabellaScott · 06/10/2021 15:44

Disorders of Sexual Development are nothing to do with 'trans' issues or gender/sex being blurred for political reasons.

Claire Graham is excellent on DSDs, though, so this is a great opportunity to post this:

womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/21/biological-sex-is-not-a-spectrum-there-are-only-two-sexes-in-humans-with-claire-graham/

WomaninBoots · 06/10/2021 15:52

@Jaysmith71

To Summarise:

How To Live As A Woman:

  1. Be a woman
  2. Breathe
  • Keep that heart beating
  • Encourage respiration in cells
  • Good job girls! Keep it up.

    CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/10/2021 15:53

    The Jolly Hockeysticks Approach to Womaning!!

    CharlieParley · 06/10/2021 16:34

    I always imagine what I would feel if my own daughter, a girl in every physical way, had failed to menstruate, was taken to the doctor, and subsequent medical intervention found her to be genetically male but with external female sex characteristics.

    I sure as hell wouldn't then suddenly make her use male bathrooms, or say she couldn't use female changing rooms etc. I wouldn't think of her as any less than a girl. She has been conditioned (for what of a better word) from birth as a female.

    That would be completely correct, because such a girl is female. As I've said before, it's not the start point (XX or XY chromosomes) that matters with sex differentiation, but the end point (female or male bodies). In the past, we wouldn't even have known about that start point. All we had to go by were bodies born one way or the other, not chromosomes.

    Someone born with a female body is female, regardless of the chromosomes they started out with. Someone born with a male body is male, regardless of the chromosomes they started out with.

    ButterflyHatched · 06/10/2021 18:02

    @Datun - And again, honestly, what is the point? If no one knows you're male what on earth is the point of all this?

    What is the point? Why do I care?

    Because I'm a feminist and I believe it's worth striving for the liberation of all women; because I think we can do better, because I think it's cowardly and woefully unfair to pull the ladder up behind me just because 'I've got mine' and don't want to rock the boat, and because the policies that get made off the back of the views formed and crystallised over discussions like this have the potential to cause immense harm.

    My presence in these spaces; the life I've been able to live has only existed despite and in spite of a general background societal hum of hostility towards trans people. I've absorbed it and internalised much of it too - you can't escape it. It's everywhere; it infects us and taints and corrupts us even while we experience it ourselves. It requires active, conscious effort to overcome. I'm aware of this; I acknowledge it, and try to overcome it even though my reflex is to hide; to keep my head down; to survive. Even, in the most insidious, awful way, to consider myself more 'deserving' of inclusion in female-only spaces. As if, somehow, a combination of accidents of birth and the privilege of growing up in a family who believed me when I told them about my observations make my identity more valid than anyone else's.

    In a way, perhaps, this is a penance of sorts for being able to live the life that so, so, so many trans women would want to live: to be invisible. To have your transness reduced to an arbitrary datapoint in your childhood and on your medical records; just a story, long faded into history, that nobody cares about in your daily life, and indeed, wouldn't even know to care about.

    So why do I care? Why do I give a shit about all those other people with slightly different experiences defined largely by the respective privileges of our upbringings?

    It really is the least I could possibly do for those who haven't had the opportunities I did.

    It's not like there aren't other feminists who feel the same way, regardless of the circumstances of their birth. Some of them have posted in this thread. This isn't a position held by 'invading males' trying to erode protections in order to be able to abuse with impunity; it's a position held by women who are sympathetic to the struggles of other women who might not be the same as them in every way but are deserving of respect and safety. Even if they don't believe someone can actually change sex or not. Even if they don't give a shit either way. Millions of women, who use the same spaces as all of us, who invited me into those spaces as a terrified, awkward teenager, who told me really, honestly, definitely it was ok, that I was being ridiculous for being so fearful - so desperately afraid that my presence might harm anyone; those friends and relatives and even, on a few notable occasions, teachers and clinicians who outright told me not to use male facilities anymore because it was going to get me hurt or killed. Who were actively annoyed that I'd read Raymond's 'the transsexual empire' and internalised it and was so desperately full of self-loathing and fear of being seen as an invasive force that I'd rather just never leave the house again; didn't think I deserved to even live. Those women. The women who looked at themselves and at this terrified, dreadfully miserable teenager just trying to exist, and saw in her a mirror of their own struggles.

    Sex is real; biology is real. Why the hell would I have transitioned if these things weren't real? If we could all just push through clinically significant distress by sheer force of will and look back and have a jolly old laugh at how silly we used to be? That might work for some people. It demonstrably does not work for others.

    The oppressions inflicted on people over those factors are real, and relevant, and there are situations where the inclusion of trans people without case by case evaluation and very careful refinement and consideration of safety and fairness is inappropriate. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise? When it comes to sport, the matter is incredibly complex; when it comes to refuges and crisis centres, likewise. If I thought my presence in a sporting event was unfair or unsafe - or, indeed, if I was told so - then I wouldn't take part. If I was told that someone at a crisis centre was somehow made uncomfortable by my presence then I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to recuse myself.

    These matters require sense, nuance, honesty, respect and care. They require us to have open, honest conversations about how we define ourselves, because that is the reality in which we live.

    I don't think it matters whether your philosophical beliefs agree on whether males can truly become female or not, or whether gender identity is real or not. Believe whatever you want.

    Suffering is real, harm is real. Prejudice is real and causes both of these things.

    So why do I care?

    Because, much like those women who showed compassion and tolerance to an awkward, suffering teenager twenty years ago; who let her grow into a woman who has since shared so many of the same struggles, celebrations and life journeys while causing harm to precisely nobody over all these years, I want to help. To reach a hand out, in kindness and compassion, and help pass that gesture forward to others who need it.

    It was easy for them. I already looked just like their sisters; like their daughters. They didn't even really have to try, and within a year or so, nobody even noticed.

    It's not always that easy. But that doesn't mean we can't try.

    I don't think we should let men into same-sex spaces. I wouldn't want that - I'd hate that. Find it hugely uncomfortable, dangerous and counter-intuitive.

    I do think we should be compassionate human beings, and be both practical and respectful in our definitions. That's not #bekind; that's common human decency.

    I don't think the above statements are mutually exclusive.

    WomaninBoots · 06/10/2021 18:05

    You're not a fucking feminist mate.

    Shedbuilder · 06/10/2021 18:08

    You're not a feminist. You're a male person who's assumed he's entitled to enter women's single-sex spaces. A feminist would understand why that wasn't an option.

    I'm sure you think we should be compassionate and absorb you. That fits your narrative. You mention human decency. Where was yours when you decided that your 'need' to access women's single-sex spaces, events and so on overrode women's desire for women-only facilities and space?

    Decent men understand women's desire for single-sex groups, spaces and facilities. Decent men don't decide that their desire trumps women's needs.

    Shedbuilder · 06/10/2021 18:09

    Ah, WomaninBoots, you're so much better at this than me!

    midgedude · 06/10/2021 18:11

    Women are not liberated if they are not allowed to exclude all men from female single sex spaces

    CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/10/2021 18:14

    Again, filtering the emotional and cutting to the nub -

    I do think we should be compassionate human beings, and be both practical and respectful in our definitions. That's not #bekind; that's common human decency.

    Then be compassionate to me... Men in female spaces scare me.

    My past trauma means they will always scare me.

    I don't want to be kind. I want to feel safe.

    I do think your various statements are mutually exclusive and have explained why, repeatedly - but you are still ignoring my voice, denying me the right to be safe.

    That's why trying cannot work.

    a) who wins in the protected characteristic conflict? The EA2010 has some very specific guidelines

    b) we try and women and girls get hurt. How many befre we al agree that it doesn't work?

    • remember such things already have happened....
    midgedude · 06/10/2021 18:16

    Women are not liberated if the only way to get respect and rewards due to our skills is to deny our biology and transition to transmen

    We need to be able to not harm our bodies and still get equal representation in society

    Pretending, or forcing , the word woman to mean anything more than biology sets women's rights back by perpetuating the myth that females are fundamentally different in material , cognitive ways to males

    I have tried to listen carefully, to understand your viewpoint . Wish you could do the same

    BatmansBat · 06/10/2021 18:17

    Butterfly, maybe you believe that you are a feminist.

    But you are mainly arguing for more people who have (or were born with) penises into women’s spaces.

    You are arguing, as a male born, for more males, who you claim pass less well than you, to be let into women’s spaces making these mixed sex. . In which universe is this feminism???

    Datun · 06/10/2021 18:18

    ButterflyHatched

    Sorry, there's no way I'm reading all that - I'll never understand why there is always such a load of anecdotal self obsession.

    I got as far as you claiming that the reason you were trying to redefine the entire concept of sex was altruism.

    For males, of course.

    Always remembering that feminism must be beneficial to males, or it's pointless.

    As WomaninBoots has so succinctly pointed out, in fact.

    Honestly. I've heard some excuses in my time, but altruism? Purleeze.

    AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 06/10/2021 18:20

    ButterflyHatched

    Sorry, there's no way I'm reading all that - I'll never understand why there is always such a load of anecdotal self obsession.

    Seriously. That was a My Eyes Glaze Over post if there ever was.

    midgedude · 06/10/2021 18:20

    Well if woman doesn't mean woman why should feminism mean feminism?

    Runningupthecurtains · 06/10/2021 18:20

    Suffering is real, harm is real fear of men in women's spaces is real and causes both of these.

    Why does the suffering of a few men trump the suffering of 51% of the population?

    A few post ago you earnestly stated that you know the fear so why would you want to inflict that on half the population?
    I believe it's worth striving for the liberation of all women;

    I never go a reply to what the "many types of women are" I can only identify the adult, human, female ones so could enlighten me as to who the other women are?

    Jaysmith71 · 06/10/2021 18:21
    1. Ingest nutrition
    2. Don't forget to poo
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