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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils

312 replies

Highwind · 29/09/2021 23:01

Reported by the Guardian....

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-unveiled-by-uk-sports-councils

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Helleofabore · 30/09/2021 13:56

Stonewall could not possibly say anything less and retain their current membership.

It is a good reminder though that they have NO intention of accepting compromise at all. Ever.

Helleofabore · 30/09/2021 14:14

Now this is a very interesting thread from Dr Hilton.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1443520696877998083?s=20

Helleofabore · 30/09/2021 14:18

The tweet thread or as much as I can capture.

Tweeted 11.18 am

Starts

Here is an interesting summary of the interviews/interviewees that Sports Councils UK consulted when developing their new transgender guidelines.

equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Project%20Report%20on%20the%20Review%20of%20the%20Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf
From Page 10 onwards.

Those interviewees who supported inclusion of transgender people, often without any restriction or requirement, made very cogent arguments as to why others were wrong and that over time, they would be shown to have been on “wrong side of history”.

It was suggested that those transgender individuals who wanted to participate in sport were looking to feel part of something: They had often endured a difficult adolescence but perhaps sport was a significant part in their previous life, and they were reluctant to lose this.

They argued that while it was clear that an individual might have an advantage, sport had a long history of there being winners and losers, and that DSD or transgender athletes were entitled to compete at any level.

While it was acknowledged that most transgender women were bigger and stronger than females, the respondents argued that sport includes an inherent level of risk, especially in combat or collision sports, and the organising sports bodies would need to face this reality.

Most of these respondents were opposed to the International Olympic Committee (IOC) approach of mandating a reduction of testosterone levels, and they argued that asking an athlete to take unnecessary medication was unethical, morally unacceptable and discriminatory.

Those working with sports confessed that when faced with the need to make a case-by-case assessment in relation to transgender inclusion, they waived the individual through the process.

They typically justified this approach by saying that they saw the individual concerned as presenting as their patient for whom they should advocate, or they were concerned about any possible legal challenge from an individual or group if they were excluded from participation.

Over ninety individuals interviewed had 20 or more years’ experience in sport and could be described as the sports “professionals” who had a full-time or near full-time involvement in sport.

While they had a shared appreciation and empathy for transgender people and agreed everyone had a right to participate in sport, most considered that it is unfair and unmanageable for transgender women to participate in competitive female sport, with or without requirement.

This view was held by a majority of interviewees from sport, and this included some transgender women.

My note: So during the consultation process, those people actively involved as sports professionals were far more focussed on fairness.

Several current female athletes suggested that although all or most athletes considered transgender athletes have an advantage if they compete in women’s sport, almost no-one would be brave enough to discuss this in public.

Other athletes said that they had been warned not to discuss this topic by their NGB [national governing body] and had been threatened with sanctions such as non-selection if they disobeyed.

Those interviewees who worked within Governing Bodies reported the requirement to meet Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) of accreditation or to meet standards of inclusion and equality, which they saw as an obligation to ‘tow a line’ with which they did not necessarily agree.

They were aware funding for their sport, or their own success within their role, would be compromised if they were to offer any dissent from an agreed corporate requirement.

What a mess.

___

Ends

She is very right. What a mess!

Datun · 30/09/2021 14:25

[quote Helleofabore]Now this is a very interesting thread from Dr Hilton.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1443520696877998083?s=20[/quote]
That is a very interesting thread. With absolutely zero surprises, to be honest.

Transgender advocates think that men should be able to play in women's sport, despite acknowledging that they will have an unfair advantage. And anyone who disagrees will be bullied.

andyoldlabour · 30/09/2021 14:30

I don't know what makes me more angry, the thought that the NGB's were so spineless and basically stupid, or that they intimidated and threatened current and former athletes from speaking out.
The whole thing reeks of corruption.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/09/2021 14:55

So people in sports bodies knew they were being brow beaten into doing the wrong thing but were too scared to say anything

New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils
WeeBisom · 30/09/2021 15:01

So stonewall thinks there’s no “inherent conflict between fairness , safety and inclusion.” In fact , these things are mutually supportive! But they don’t explain or provide any argument about why they’re right. We just have to take it at face value.

OvaHere · 30/09/2021 15:07

@WeeBisom

So stonewall thinks there’s no “inherent conflict between fairness , safety and inclusion.” In fact , these things are mutually supportive! But they don’t explain or provide any argument about why they’re right. We just have to take it at face value.
I am heartened to note that their tweet thread has been up for around 3 hrs now and they've not managed over 100 likes on any of the tweets.

This could change as the other side of the Atlantic wakes up and gets into gear but it suggests that very few Brits support their misogynistic and harmful position of denying fairness and safety to women.

Helleofabore · 30/09/2021 15:09

Yes. The truth is coming out like a burst dam wall.

I am not quite sure who has been at the heart of it. I assume it is sporting bodies following Stonewall advice. And if that is the case, then it must surely be another nail in Stonewall's coffin.

To enforce inclusivity through bullying and coercion... what a great way to respect others. Is the message getting through to people that Stonewall are so hypocritical? Or because people are getting what they want they will simply ignore that it comes at the expense of others and the expense of any past good will?

Don't worry. I know the answer.

yourhairiswinterfire · 30/09/2021 15:26

So people in sports bodies knew they were being brow beaten into doing the wrong thing but were too scared to say anything

I'm so sick of this. Lobby groups and ''the most marginalised'' throwing their weight around, terrorizing everyone into complying with their dangerous ideology.

The misogyny fucking sickens me. Women are just a pesky inconvenience stopping them getting everything that they want, and they think they have the right to just shove us aside and bully us into shutting up to get it.

Don't know how they have the nerve to bleat on about ''fairness'' when they're more than happy to put women in danger of being raped by convicted rapists, in women's prisons. That fair, is it?

Happy for vulnerable women to be psychologically tortured by men in rape crisis centres, refuges etc, causing some to avoid using them. Fair?

Happy for women to have their skulls caved in or their legs snapped in half because they've been forced into playing against males with all the strength and advantage that being male brings. ''Fair and inclusive''.

Anyone who speaks up is a ''bigot'' and hounded and harassed for daring to suggest that women deserve a smidge of fucking consideration too Hmm

Then others see how people are treated for ''stepping out of line'', and don't bother speaking up themselves to avoid the pitchfork mob, and this terrified silence is used as proof that there are ''no problems''.

Sick to fucking death of it.

Somebodylikeyew · 30/09/2021 15:48

Honestly, I’m emotional about this.

Thank you, UK Sports Councils. Thank you for being brave enough to speak the truth.

Runningupthecurtains · 30/09/2021 15:55

@yourhairiswinterfire

So people in sports bodies knew they were being brow beaten into doing the wrong thing but were too scared to say anything

I'm so sick of this. Lobby groups and ''the most marginalised'' throwing their weight around, terrorizing everyone into complying with their dangerous ideology.

The misogyny fucking sickens me. Women are just a pesky inconvenience stopping them getting everything that they want, and they think they have the right to just shove us aside and bully us into shutting up to get it.

Don't know how they have the nerve to bleat on about ''fairness'' when they're more than happy to put women in danger of being raped by convicted rapists, in women's prisons. That fair, is it?

Happy for vulnerable women to be psychologically tortured by men in rape crisis centres, refuges etc, causing some to avoid using them. Fair?

Happy for women to have their skulls caved in or their legs snapped in half because they've been forced into playing against males with all the strength and advantage that being male brings. ''Fair and inclusive''.

Anyone who speaks up is a ''bigot'' and hounded and harassed for daring to suggest that women deserve a smidge of fucking consideration too Hmm

Then others see how people are treated for ''stepping out of line'', and don't bother speaking up themselves to avoid the pitchfork mob, and this terrified silence is used as proof that there are ''no problems''.

Sick to fucking death of it.

❤️👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Nevermakeit · 30/09/2021 16:10

I don't understand why there can't be 2 categories: Female, and 'open'. And 'open' is male and whoever else wants to enter, be they trans, female or anything else.
If you look at what happens in swimming : the slower strokes (breaststroke, backstroke, fly etc) have their own events, where you can't swim any other stroke. Then there is 'freestyle', which could technically be any stroke, but everyone does front crawl as it's faster. So you protect the slower/weaker elements (in this example it's the strokes, but in the debate it would be 'female sports'), and then you leave the rest open.
The crazy thing is this idea that it is the stronger category (male category) which is untouched. Just change the name of the male category, and call it 'open', and then I don't see what justification trans people would have not to enter it!!

Nevermakeit · 30/09/2021 16:13

Also let's face it - if trans people were going to win against males, they wouldn't have any issue with entering those categories.

I am a woman and if I could win against men I would definitely run/play against them, I would actually love to do that - when I was a child I was always put against the boys, as I was good at sports, and i had no issue with it, just loved to wipe the floor with them :)

Datun · 30/09/2021 16:17

@Nevermakeit

I don't understand why there can't be 2 categories: Female, and 'open'. And 'open' is male and whoever else wants to enter, be they trans, female or anything else. If you look at what happens in swimming : the slower strokes (breaststroke, backstroke, fly etc) have their own events, where you can't swim any other stroke. Then there is 'freestyle', which could technically be any stroke, but everyone does front crawl as it's faster. So you protect the slower/weaker elements (in this example it's the strokes, but in the debate it would be 'female sports'), and then you leave the rest open. The crazy thing is this idea that it is the stronger category (male category) which is untouched. Just change the name of the male category, and call it 'open', and then I don't see what justification trans people would have not to enter it!!
Transwomen can already enter the male category. They don't want that, because a) it doesn't provide validation, and b) for some, they'll be nowhere, because they're not very good.

Look at all the nonsense spouted by McKinnon, about how they should just be given the female category because it's their right.

RedDogsBeg · 30/09/2021 16:20

@yourhairiswinterfire

So people in sports bodies knew they were being brow beaten into doing the wrong thing but were too scared to say anything

I'm so sick of this. Lobby groups and ''the most marginalised'' throwing their weight around, terrorizing everyone into complying with their dangerous ideology.

The misogyny fucking sickens me. Women are just a pesky inconvenience stopping them getting everything that they want, and they think they have the right to just shove us aside and bully us into shutting up to get it.

Don't know how they have the nerve to bleat on about ''fairness'' when they're more than happy to put women in danger of being raped by convicted rapists, in women's prisons. That fair, is it?

Happy for vulnerable women to be psychologically tortured by men in rape crisis centres, refuges etc, causing some to avoid using them. Fair?

Happy for women to have their skulls caved in or their legs snapped in half because they've been forced into playing against males with all the strength and advantage that being male brings. ''Fair and inclusive''.

Anyone who speaks up is a ''bigot'' and hounded and harassed for daring to suggest that women deserve a smidge of fucking consideration too Hmm

Then others see how people are treated for ''stepping out of line'', and don't bother speaking up themselves to avoid the pitchfork mob, and this terrified silence is used as proof that there are ''no problems''.

Sick to fucking death of it.

I so agree with everything you have written and am likewise sick to fucking death of it.
Chersfrozenface · 30/09/2021 16:23

But having to enter an "open" or "mixed" competition isn't validating enough for some, or indeed many. Only being treated as if they are actual women will do.

InvisibleDragon · 30/09/2021 16:26

It assumes that there is an inherent conflict between inclusion, fairness and safety. In reality, the three go hand in hand.

The "in reality" is really winding me up here. It's not reality. At best, it's a totally unevidenced assumption. At worst it's just a lie.

How can they get away with saying something that simply isn't true, state that it is true and not be challenged on it? Absolute nonsense.

viques · 30/09/2021 16:33

@NecessaryScene

Perhaps mixed team events should become more of a thing in grassroots sports where there are no pressing safety concerns. This might well add competitive opportunities for women in sports where there are fewer women - might easier to field a mixed than a women's team!

Here's a good speech at WPUK from Victoria Hood, cyclist, talking about her experiences competing in mixed events, and trying to set up female events.

One particular problem she talks about there is that elite women end up competing against total novice men, which is particularly dangerous.

Thankyou so much for posting this. Victoria is an amazing woman, I was not aware of her struggles to push for equitable status for women’s racing, but have nothing but admiration for her determination and tenacity. It is a travesty that with all the money that has been given to support cycling for men , women’s cycling is still so badly funded. Sport needs women like Victoria, not only to support women’s participation but also to ensure that all sport is conducted fairly.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/09/2021 16:42

How can they get away with saying something that simply isn't true, state that it is true and not be challenged on it?

Because they are Stonewall, the authority on all things LGBT. They have an excellent reputation and unless they do something major it will take a while for them to lose that.

OvaHere · 30/09/2021 17:22

@Chersfrozenface

But having to enter an "open" or "mixed" competition isn't validating enough for some, or indeed many. Only being treated as if they are actual women will do.
Will that matter though if these guidelines are taken seriously?

Up until now, other than ideological capture because they were chasing Stonewall cookies, the biggest driver by sports teams/orgs to roll over in the face of common sense was probably fear of being sued for discrimination.

(funnily enough not fearful of women doing that but oh well)

Could that still happen now? In light of these guidelines could a male person still bring a suit against a female team that said no, this is a single sex team?

IANAL so I don't know the answer.

AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 30/09/2021 17:52

The "open" and "female" categories are non-starters for reasons stated above. It will be interesting to see who opts for fairness over inclusion and how long they last before caving in to TRAs.

CatsOperatingInGangs · 30/09/2021 17:57

twitter.com/thebkc/status/1443580564817076232?s=20

British Kickboxing are quick to confirm their happy with mixed sex kickboxing.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 30/09/2021 18:10

Good job I left BKC when I stopped teaching. I'd have had to quit in disgust at some point over the last couple of years. Their stance is unsustainable and, once a woman is badly hurt in a local gym, they will have to change their mind. But that is what it will take.

OvaHere · 30/09/2021 18:31

@CatsOperatingInGangs

twitter.com/thebkc/status/1443580564817076232?s=20

British Kickboxing are quick to confirm their happy with mixed sex kickboxing.

So much for these guidelines having teeth then.

Imagine being so misogynistic you'd read this report and decide fairness and safety for women and girls still doesn't matter.

Will we just have to sue everyone repeatedly?

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