New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils

[Highwind]

Reported by the Guardian....

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-unveiled-by-uk-sports-councils

Yeah I know datun. We all know. They all know

Fucking obvious

That pesky biology

There is no fun competing at a level too low for you.

Unless it provides validation for your assertion that you’re a woman.

@littlbrowndog

Tennis is for sure a contact sport at any level

Ever been hit by a ball travelling at maybe 50 mph ?

Hard enough to get women and girls to stay in tennis without having men playing in their leagues

I played in a mixed singles tennis league, the best woman was in the top box, there were no women in the 4 boxes below that and the rest of the women were scattered between boxes 6-12, 25 boxes in total. The only (fully operated on) trans woman wasn't good enough to play mixed singles, but didn't hit the ball harder than the men in box 10 but hard enough for some women of her standard to not enjoy training with her. They didn't enjoy training with me either so I rarely went to those sessions

This from PizzaCrust:

We don't need wishy-washy advice. We need it outlined and made entirely unambigious. If you are trans and want to play in a sport where men already can't compete directly against women, I'm sorry but you'll just have to find another sport or compete against other transwomen.

Yes.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand. It isn't being transphobic, it's speaking an uncomfortable truth. And as much as people want and beg for life to be fair, life is never going to be fair. If it was, we wouldn't have millions of people living in poverty across the world.

This applies to the trans issue across the board: And as much as people want and beg for life to be fair, life is never going to be fair and it's high time the trans lobby learnt this. No-one ever said or promised that life would be fair, we do what we can to reduce the unfairness but life will never be completely fair and it's high time the trans lobby grew up and accepted this.

@randomsabreuse

I can't see that tennis is more "contact" than fencing...

If people aren't being stupidly competitive about grassroots sport it should not be an issue - mixed doubles exists after all.

If a person wants to be super competitive, play on the "open/men's" team, if they can't play sensibly with the women's team then they get dropped and encouraged to play at their own level.

There is no fun competing at a level too low for you. I'd have no fun competing against U13/U15s or in a novice competition, U17s are a different challenge (less technically/tactically sophisticated but physically capable and probably faster than me), U20s are like seniors and I'm right at the bottom of the masters age group where the older masters (O60) are all about tactical cunning and bamboozling the young..

This guidance has to apply at all levels. Competitive club tennis at high school age had a lot of grade levels, doubles feels very contact when your doubles partner crashes into you or whacks you Sadly, speaking from experience. I was obviously never headed towards elite level competition, but I was a small teen girl as were most others. Would have been quite different level incidents with a boy.

I was comfortably beating the other women in my local clubs so trained against men who were sensible enough to make the matches tactically useful for both ofus

But that's not fair on the boys.having to hold back possibly stopping their own progression in order not to hurt their female team mate.

Also highlights the gap in funding and investment in coaching when girls do not have the same option to be really pushed and have the same level of coaching as the boys do.

What the girls do in stuff like mixed coaching is that they just leave they don’t make a fuss. Just go away

THIS.

DD's football coach thought it would be 'fun' to make them play the boys team at the end of training once. The girls very quickly just gave up, didn't even try to tackle the boys as they were scared of getting hurt and in the end, just stopped even chasing after the ball. It was 20-0 to the boys and only lasted 15 mins. What do you think would happen if they made them train with the boys every week? There wouldn't be any girls left as they'd just stop coming.

Hang on @randomsabreuse
If people aren't being stupidly competitive about grassroots sport it should not be an issue - mixed doubles exists after all.
If a person wants to be super competitive, play on the "open/men's" team, if they can't play sensibly with the women's team then they get dropped and encouraged to play at their own level.
What do you mean? People can be very competitive at grassroots sport! And whether they are super talented or not, and especially younger people/teens. I’ve always been competitive but my tennis skill level limited me to grade 4 comp. everyone is still extremely competitive down to grade 10 or whatever it went down to, and ditto hockey and other sports I played.
As an adult I played hack level community sport, and that was more going for a friendly game type, but don’t assume grassroots means everyone is in it for fun not in it to win it.

I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind viewing elite sport as different to amateur and school sport.

Isn't it exactly the same, but people just aren't as good?

And isn't amateur and school sport the place where elite sports people start?

Maybe before puberty, there might be a point. Although I have heard that even prepubescent children can be distinguished from one another in terms of strength based on sex.

But after that, I really don't get it. It's just as unfair to include males in female sports at school as it is at the Olympics.

Unless I'm missing something (always a possibility!)

Mermaids statement:

We are disappointed to read this review, which rather than focussing on bettering its existing guidance for trans people in sport, yet again ignores the lived experiences of trans people, and misinterprets the Equality Act and academic literature.

This report will have ramifications for trans people in the sporting community, and only seeks to cause unnecessary hostility, exclusion and confusion for those wishing to participate in sport.

It is important to remember that the SCEG report only exists as guidance: it is not mandatory. Sports groups and organisations are entitled and encouraged to write and implement their own policies on including trans and non-binary people in sport.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/mermaids-reaction-to-the-sports-council-equality-group-review/

@Datun

The new transgender guidelines are the result of an 18-month review that involved speaking to more than 300 people and 175 organisations, including current and former athletes, transgender people and LGBT+ and women’s groups. It also examined all the latest scientific research, making it the most comprehensive ever report into this hotly disputed area.

Honestly, talk about reinventing the bloody wheel. Like others, I'm so pissed off that there has been this level of work and money involved in stating the bleeding obvious.

And we all know why - the conclusion has to be irontight, watertight and airtight so TRAs can't screwdriver it open and shit all over it.

“No one was able to offer a single solution which would resolve all the identified issues, or that would satisfy all stakeholders,” the review states

Again, you can hear my dur from space.

Spend hundreds of thousands of pounds, and what is it, two years, or five minutes on FWR. And I'm not even joking. These spineless twits have to learn to say no. Because it's not fair. Not because they've finally proven men are stronger than women!

And it's not 'inclusion'. It's unfair and exclusion.

Hear hear Datun, I have long said the same. The onus should have always been placed on TRAs to do independent, reproducible peer reviewed long term studies to demonstrate their argument, that there is no sex-based differences between males and females for sport. Sooo much time and effort has been spent on appeasement, and it still won’t be enough.

No. Just no.

Plus, as we have seen umpteen times, if these boys identify as girls, the issue of changing rooms is going to come up.

Just say no!

What's in it for the girls???

Leap Sports statement excerpts:

In the UK right now, trans people are not currently able to freely participate in sport. Taking part in sport for many trans people already involves interpreting and adhering to sometimes onerous regulations before being able to play. As a result, participation rates in sport and physical activity for trans people are poor. Research from 2019 (Outsport) shows that 54% of trans people feel excluded from particular sports or have at some point stopped participating in a particular sport as a result of discrimination around their gender identity, whilst 47% of trans women who are active in sport reported at least one negative personal experience in their sport as a result of discrimination and transphobia in the preceding 12 months.

We also believe the new guidance presents a false dichotomy of inclusion and fairness and faces NGBs and SGBs with a choice between the two. Our organisations have worked in direct partnership with governing bodies in sport for many years nationally and internationally, supporting the development of inclusive and equitable sport for trans and non-binary people. We will continue to do so in the face of this regressive step.

Good god what's wrong with mermaids.

No one is excluded they can train with their fellow males/females.

If their bones are too fragile or their binders stop them.breathing properly so they can't play that's on you mermaids not the sports coaches

Surely the way you get to be elite is via school sports in the first place. You are not born an elite sportswoman. So if potential elite girls are put off by mixed sports at school level then that is a future problem for elite sports. Say if Jessica Ennis gave up at 13 as she was made to compete against males as she was never able to compete fairly.

Trans ppl can play in the sport of their biological sex

Yes there is no doubt work to be done around how trans ppl are included and treated within sport but that doesn’t negate that they still need to compete in their biological sex category

[quote ItsAllGoingToBeFine]Mermaids statement:

We are disappointed to read this review, which rather than focussing on bettering its existing guidance for trans people in sport, yet again ignores the lived experiences of trans people, and misinterprets the Equality Act and academic literature.

This report will have ramifications for trans people in the sporting community, and only seeks to cause unnecessary hostility, exclusion and confusion for those wishing to participate in sport.

It is important to remember that the SCEG report only exists as guidance: it is not mandatory. Sports groups and organisations are entitled and encouraged to write and implement their own policies on including trans and non-binary people in sport.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/mermaids-reaction-to-the-sports-council-equality-group-review/[/quote]
Is there anyone left who does not put this sort of upsidedown word salad through a translation machine?

This is about males in female sports.

All the euphemisms in the world don't change that.

Finally a bit of common sense.

In the UK right now, trans people are not currently able to freely participate in sport.
Bullshit.
Trans people are able to freely participate in sport in line with their sex. Same as everyone else.

Equality, fairness and inclusiviy all at the same time! Astonishing no?

ignores the lived experiences of trans people

What does this actually mean?

Is it a euphemism for "they can't have what they want"?

Is saying over-16s can't compete in under-16 sports "ignoring the lived experiences of over-16s"?

This applies to the trans issue across the board: And as much as people want and beg for life to be fair, life is never going to be fair and it's high time the trans lobby learnt this. No-one ever said or promised that life would be fair, we do what we can to reduce the unfairness but life will never be completely fair and it's high time the trans lobby grew up and accepted this.

Well, steady on, we can try to make it as fair as possible.

But certain people need to recognise that "being fair" is not a synonym for "everyone getting what they want".

We can't all be teenagers yelling "that's not fair!!!!" at our parents when told we can't do something.

It is important to remember that the SCEG report only exists as guidance: it is not mandatory. Sports groups and organisations are entitled and encouraged to write and implement their own policies on including trans and non-binary people in sport.

Red flags flying all over this statement. I basically read this as "We are going to bully and Lobby the shit out of sporting groups and organisations until they capitulate to our mad demands".

@NecessaryScene

ignores the lived experiences of trans people

What does this actually mean?

Is it a euphemism for "they can't have what they want"?

Is saying over-16s can't compete in under-16 sports "ignoring the lived experiences of over-16s"?

That's exactly what they are saying. Pathetic.

Hooo bloody Ray!! I mean it is ridiculous that so much time and money has been spent confirming the bleedin fucking obvious but still

This in spades - anyone with half a brain cell,, going back in time, for all history, knows that men are normally stronger and bigger built than women.

Well, steady on, we can try to make it as fair as possible.

That's what I said, Necessary we do all we can to reduce the unfairness.

But certain people need to recognise that "being fair" is not a synonym for "everyone getting what they want".

Exactly.