New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils

[Highwind]

Reported by the Guardian....

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-unveiled-by-uk-sports-councils

I think it's excellent. The option of an open category anyone can enter and female makes sense, there probably won't be enough trans people for a third group although that may change. It means trans women are less likely to win things as they only have an advantage over females but giving transwomen a competitive advantage was never supposed to be the point of the exercise, it was to let them compete.

The basic underlying unwritten message I get from that statement, though, is:

Males are males, males remain male despite 'transitioning' and males will always remain male.

Which I think is perhaps quite helpful to anyone who has been dazzled by rainbow theory in the past few years.

I have no issue with full inclusion at grassroots level sports for non contact type sports (tennis, badminton, table tennis) or even contact sports where males and females regularly train together (fencing). I have even less issue with mass participation running events. The issue will be drawing the line of where grassroots meets competitive - so tennis leagues - maybe the firsts have to obey "competitive" guidance but 2nd team and below can be open.

Perhaps mixed team events should become more of a thing in grassroots sports where there are no pressing safety concerns. This might well add competitive opportunities for women in sports where there are fewer women - might easier to field a mixed than a women's team!

As ever, reality is a TERF

In fencing, to an extent a combat/contact sport, women and men have always trained together and smaller tournaments might well be mixed. Was at a mixed competition the other week, it worked well although it had no ranking consequences. In general there are no safety concerns with experienced fencers unless there is previous bad feeling between them other than a very few, usually less skilled individuals who would be a problem in a single sex competition.

When I started out even serious UKcompetitions were mixed, until the numbers increased sufficiently to sustain women only events, so there's a lot of experience on the "safety" side as well as a decent amount of data to suggest how competitive fairness would pan out...

This feels like really good news. While I share the frustration that it's taken so long and so much effort to state the obvious, I think this is a really important thing to happen. It feels like the first time that an official organisation has quite clearly stated, and clearly evidenced, that there is a conflict here, and that there is need for a careful, process to work out a resolution, balancing safety, fairness and inclusion. I appreciate they haven't made it clear that is must be in that order, but I think once you start a conversation about balancing those, it becomes obvious that it must be.

I think World Rugby got there first, but I suppose their work opened the door to this, and I hope that this now opens the door for nuanced conversations in individual sports which have until now been completely shut down by the usual howling that any discussion is a hate crime. And hopefully opens up space in other environments too - 'no debate' is no more...

Very interesting insights above into the slowness of the insurance industry @NiceGerbil I hope we don't have to wait for cases where women have been injured or killed for them to catch up. That's what I've been frightened of until now.

Watching the Baroness' webinar on Friday, I really agreed with Helen Joyce's anger at the failure of official bodies to engage with this issue and step up to acknowledge that conflicts exist and need to be worked through. I've found it really worrying wondering how we can find a way forward. This feels like a very important first step.

Tennis is for sure a contact sport at any level

Ever been hit by a ball travelling at maybe 50 mph ?

Hard enough to get women and girls to stay in tennis without having men playing in their leagues

The issue will be drawing the line of where grassroots meets competitive - so tennis leagues - maybe the firsts have to obey "competitive" guidance but 2nd team and below can be open.

But elite athletes generally come up through the ranks of grass roots sports.

I think it would be better to distinguish between competitive and social sport.

You know how hard it is to get girls and women into sport and then to stay in sport ?

There has been several studies done on this

And at no point was there ever a conclusion that having boys and men playing any sport with women and girls was a good idea

It’s blizzare that it’s being put forward here as a good idea

I can't see that tennis is more "contact" than fencing...

If people aren't being stupidly competitive about grassroots sport it should not be an issue - mixed doubles exists after all.

If a person wants to be super competitive, play on the "open/men's" team, if they can't play sensibly with the women's team then they get dropped and encouraged to play at their own level.

There is no fun competing at a level too low for you. I'd have no fun competing against U13/U15s or in a novice competition, U17s are a different challenge (less technically/tactically sophisticated but physically capable and probably faster than me), U20s are like seniors and I'm right at the bottom of the masters age group where the older masters (O60) are all about tactical cunning and bamboozling the young..

I'm really pleased with this, particularly as it covers grassroots amateur sport too. That's really important, not just because future elite competitors come up through grassroots teams, but also from a safety perspective. People who are new to a sport or don't have a good base level of fitness are much more likely to get injured or cause injury to others, because they don't know how to manoeuvre safely (see Roller Derby for example). That injury risk only gets bigger if you put men and women on the same field.

Not quite sure how this will play out for non-competitive events like group rides / sportives, but I think it clearly makes the point that single-sex events are legal, rather than that inclusion should be the priority. That should make it easier to defend wanting to run a single-sex event.

I'm well aware how hard it is to get girls into sport - and as one of the first competitive girls in my discipline almost all of my early training was mixed. I was comfortably beating the other women in my local clubs so trained against men who were sensible enough to make the matches tactically useful for both of us.

My DD is 6 and if she didn't play boys (tennis) she'd have no one to play - actually she's physically stronger and taller than the boys her own age, which is not uncommon at this age.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

I was pleased to read this last night, and yes kudos to Sean Ingle who I think has consistently dealt with this topic very well. I'm feeling positive a way forward can be found, and am happy that there is also recognition of the value of sport & activity for everyone's health & well-being, and that mixed sex sports can be a great thing, if done properly! I've been part of mixed sex teams in touch rugby and rowing and it's a great experience.

I might even consider starting up my ladies-only cycling sessions I used to lead, IF British Cycling change their minds & permit me to run them on a sex based basis.

I've moved my women only rides outside of the BC structure now so I can ensure they are women only. Not sure I'll move them back. We all enjoy riding in a safe, female environment with lots of feminist chat and

I guess in fencing you wear protective clothing. We don’t when we play tennis
Loads of us get injuries from contact with a ball
No nothing about fencing so can’t comment

But know about tennis and what you are suggesting would be the end of women’s and girls leagues at club level

Even teen boys are stronger than me and can. Hit harder

Must be that pesky biology

@randomsabreuse

I can't see that tennis is more "contact" than fencing...

If people aren't being stupidly competitive about grassroots sport it should not be an issue - mixed doubles exists after all.

If a person wants to be super competitive, play on the "open/men's" team, if they can't play sensibly with the women's team then they get dropped and encouraged to play at their own level.

There is no fun competing at a level too low for you. I'd have no fun competing against U13/U15s or in a novice competition, U17s are a different challenge (less technically/tactically sophisticated but physically capable and probably faster than me), U20s are like seniors and I'm right at the bottom of the masters age group where the older masters (O60) are all about tactical cunning and bamboozling the young..

There may not be for you but it appears to be for those people who were distinctly average when competing against men but became elite very quickly once they identified as women

Strength does matter in tennis though. I play my husband a lot and yes hitting back and forth is ok but I can’t return his serve but he always returns mine. And in mixed doubles you have one male one female. If you allowed trans women to compete as the female then that double would have a massive advantage. You could maybe have trans woman and female on same side though. That could work and would be inclusive as well as fair?

There is no fun competing at a level too low for you.

Any male that is determined to compete in female sport is doing this. It's not about being fun. It's about validation and/or winning.

Definitely matters in tennis! As it involves strength and speed!

So, this is a clearly written report, providing concise definitions, acknowledging the issues and suggesting potential options?

Compare and contrast with the panicked waffling, pained squirming, bodged stats and scientific illiteracy various elected representatives have provided over the past few days.

Good to know there are still a few grown-ups left in charge of things.

I feel strongly that fairness at grass roots level is just as important as it is at elite level.
Sport England launched the This Girl Can campaign precisely because they acknowledged that girls where underrepresented in sport. There are loads of reasons why girls are less likely to play sport and none of them apply to teenage boys. If you make grassroots female sports mixed sex, you're just chucking in another barrier to participation for biological girls.

The new transgender guidelines are the result of an 18-month review that involved speaking to more than 300 people and 175 organisations, including current and former athletes, transgender people and LGBT+ and women’s groups. It also examined all the latest scientific research, making it the most comprehensive ever report into this hotly disputed area.

Honestly, talk about reinventing the bloody wheel. Like others, I'm so pissed off that there has been this level of work and money involved in stating the bleeding obvious.

And we all know why - the conclusion has to be irontight, watertight and airtight so TRAs can't screwdriver it open and shit all over it.

“No one was able to offer a single solution which would resolve all the identified issues, or that would satisfy all stakeholders,” the review states

Again, you can hear my dur from space.

Spend hundreds of thousands of pounds, and what is it, two years, or five minutes on FWR. And I'm not even joking. These spineless twits have to learn to say no. Because it's not fair. Not because they've finally proven men are stronger than women!

And it's not 'inclusion'. It's unfair and exclusion.

@Quadzilla

I feel strongly that fairness at grass roots level is just as important as it is at elite level. Sport England launched the This Girl Can campaign precisely because they acknowledged that girls where underrepresented in sport. There are loads of reasons why girls are less likely to play sport and none of them apply to teenage boys. If you make grassroots female sports mixed sex, you're just chucking in another barrier to participation for biological girls.

Yes completely agree. You sometimes get the impression only elite sport matters but school sports is how elite women become elite in the first place and girls sports matters! So many girls drop out when their periods start and this biological disadvantage is rarely mentioned as a factor but it was a huge reason for me and my friends at 13/ 14.

Quadzilla

What the girls do in stuff like mixed coaching is that they just leave they don’t make a fuss. Just go away

There is a reason why Judy Murray has girls only inititaves

Tennis is for sure a contact sport. Just cos we don’t scrap with each other doesn’t mean we don’t get hit by a ball travelling at high speed in the face or chest

Perhaps mixed team events should become more of a thing in grassroots sports where there are no pressing safety concerns. This might well add competitive opportunities for women in sports where there are fewer women - might easier to field a mixed than a women's team!

Here's a good speech at WPUK from Victoria Hood, cyclist, talking about her experiences competing in mixed events, and trying to set up female events.

One particular problem she talks about there is that elite women end up competing against total novice men, which is particularly dangerous.

Perhaps mixed team events should become more of a thing in grassroots sports where there are no pressing safety concerns. This might well add competitive opportunities for women in sports where there are fewer women - might easier to field a mixed than a women's team!

Here's a good speech at WPUK from Victoria Hood, cyclist, talking about her experiences competing in mixed events, and trying to set up female events.

One particular problem she talks about there is that elite women end up competing against total novice men, which is particularly dangerous.