AIBU to actually be starting to like the term cis?

[newnameday]

Hopefully this is allowed. Not bashing anyone.

I hated the term cis however this morning it hit me that we may be better embracing it if we can't eradicate it.

We have TWAW etc. But in the next however many years, we may find it easier, for example you're on a dating site "cis woman seeking cis man" therefore you will (hopefully) link with genetically male partners. Rather than "seeking a man" and you may possibly end up with a trans man. Again, no judgement or bashing, however I only ever wanted to be with someone who was genetically male, it's just my preference and I should be able to state this in a simple way.

So you would be able to request a man (if happy with cis or trans man) or woman, a cis man/woman and the subsections of lesbian or gay.

Prepared to be told IABU and sure that someone will likely be able to point out why this is bad. I'm not wanting this to be a bashing thread. I'm just starting to think the term may become useful in the not-too-distant future.

Also prepared this may end up deleted.

@Bizawit
I don’t really feel safe in this space
WHAT?
You're finding WORDS so scary that you don't feel 'safe'? You're anonymous, we're anonymous, no one is about to dox you or offer rape threats or any of the shit that many, many GC women have taken.

Think about the how the women in WiSpa felt. That is 'not feeling safe'.

That is where this bullshit takes us.

Enjoy your echo chamber
Well, if you can't stand up and argue against us, because we're so bloody scary... Or perhaps you can't argue against us because you haven't any arguments? Is that it?

@Bizawit

I’ll just jump in quickly to respond to *@Newnewnew1179* who seemed to genuinely want to engage. I see your point and would be happy to share my thoughts via DM if you are genuinely interested.

This is the second poster whose requested people private message them or interact with them off the Board, what exactly is going on here?

You may wish to denigrate yourself but I do not. Cis is demeaning. It makes you a subset of your own sex. Hell will freeze over before I give up the words woman and female. They have meaning and they belong to us. Not males who identify as trans or anyone else, just us.

what exactly is going on here?
I think what is going on here is that they haven't strong enough arguments, that's what. Cut one out of the herd and all that.

@334bu

Without establishing from the beginning what you mean by the word woman, then nobody will understand your paper. Unfortunately if you move the meaning of woman from ," adult human female" to " a person of any sex who identifies with gendered stereotypes which society demands of the female human", then things get complicated. If you can't use transwoman and woman, then the only other option is male woman and female woman. However, if you wish to be totally accurate you could use human female and human male with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Rest assured all terms are defined!

@CuriousaboutSamphire So do you think JKR also missed the point "by a country mile" in her essay which I quoted?

As I thought it was very sensitively and eloquently written.

And I am saying that to me, that sort of occasional and careful use is not incompatible with thinking that "women" is the correct usual term.

@RottenRowGal

I guess this paper is aimed squarely at the language-mangling, meaning-obfuscating Butlerian gender-woo acolytes.

Exactly, these groups become so self referential they don't realise that they are being controlled.

Going from women to non trans women to cis women in developing a paper is tip toeing around men which is most current gender studies.

The Green Party hilariously reached non-ma as the most inclusive language.

It's sad to see.

Non-men!

@herecomesthesun I think JKRs essay was aimed at clearly expressing the issues rather than suggesting women adopt an additional label. Making entirely certain that she couldn't be misquoted... not that that worked, given the desperate measures taken to prove her TERF.

In an essay setting out the issue, it's probably a necessary evil. As a term to be adopted by women to appease? #Nothankyou

I don’t really feel safe in this space

You don't feel 'safe' on an anonymous forum because women have different opinions to you?
That poster could clearly see your misogyny and gaslighting.

How 'safe' do you think the female prisoners forced to share a cell and showers with fully intact rapists because the rapist 'identifies as a woman' feel?

How 'safe' do you think JKR felt when thousands of males who call themselves women threatened to murder her or rape her with their penis?

Rest assured all terms are defined!

Good - so why the reticence if you could just c&p what you've put for 'women'?
Surely you're not afraid that it will not stand up to scrutiny?

No. Cis woman means identifying oneself as compliant with "feminine" adjectives. What might they be? Weak as opposed to strong? Soft as opposed to hard? Short as opposed to tall? Decorative as opposed to functional? Useful as opposed to educated? Do you see the problem? What does feminine gender mean for us to identify with it? Accepting Cis as as a term is acceptance of stereotyping femaleness and maleness into behavioural boxes. Just no!!!!!

20 pages of arguing over what is a woman? Seriously?

We all know exactly what a woman is we all came from one. I don't even know why we're wasting the energy discussing this.

There was a time when I tiptoed around all this but now I'm just sick and bloody tired of it all.

25 years ago I moved in with my now DH and my nan said to me "Never give an inch because he'll take a mile, they can't help themselves" best advice I ever had, and so relevant to this.

We keep giving this conversation the time of day and that's how we become body parts and functions.

No, thank you.

@Fitt

Non-men!

I remember the 'non-men' quote.

So we have political parties declaring women 'non-men' and sporting federations declaring women as 'people who have not had testosterone driven puberty'.

And black women's charities using terms like 'black birthing bodies' and Lancet using 'bodies with vaginas'.

And it seems that we have women who actually think all these terms are ok and not dehumanising, and not causing harm to women and girls.

I guess if you are determined to not see it, you never will.

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]@herecomesthesun I think JKRs essay was aimed at clearly expressing the issues rather than suggesting women adopt an additional label. Making entirely certain that she couldn't be misquoted... not that that worked, given the desperate measures taken to prove her TERF.

In an essay setting out the issue, it's probably a necessary evil. As a term to be adopted by women to appease? #Nothankyou[/quote]
I 'm not suggesting women adopt "natal" as an additional label in general terms (I see myself as a woman)

But it might be a useful adjective for clarification, for example in a piece of writing like JKR's.

And it sounds a lot better to my ear than "cis"

So Bizawit talks here at length, and writes about transwomen, cis women and BAME women, but signally fails to define the word woman in any of those terms?

Whilst simultaneously professing to seek clarity for their paper?

These words don't work because they mean the opposite of each other.

If a transwoman is a male who identifies as a woman, and ciswoman means not trans, then it's labelling women as 'not a male identifies as a woman'. All women to be defined in reference to what a man does. Nice.

And people wonder why women say no! 😁

What's the betting that if this, what I imagine is entirely mythical, paper gets written up there won't be a single part of it that acknowledges how very many women find the term cis not only utterly offensive and unbelievably sexist, but will pull up anyone who attempts to use it on them?

[quote herecomesthsun]@CuriousaboutSamphire So do you think JKR also missed the point "by a country mile" in her essay which I quoted?

As I thought it was very sensitively and eloquently written.

And I am saying that to me, that sort of occasional and careful use is not incompatible with thinking that "women" is the correct usual term.[/quote]
JKR was trying to be respectful in her essay whilst simultaneously ensuring that the differences between the two distinct groups were made crystal clear for anyone not up to speed on the subject.

She chose her words wisely and deliberately.

What is glaringly obvious is that Bitawiz doesn't care that women find the word cis offensive.

Everyone has the right to feel offended except for women.

Right oh.

I have never understood why women are the only class of beings expected to welcome invasion of our spaces by an outside group.
White people identifying as black get short shrift.
Ditto old people claiming to identify as young ones.
Why is it only women who get rape and death threats for trying to maintain our boundaries against the men who are trying to identify in? While claiming that they are more oppressed than the women they are bullying?
Not a single transgender person was murdered last year in the UK. Over two women a week were. Explain again why we are so “privileged” and less oppressed.

@BaronessWrongCrowd

You may wish to denigrate yourself but I do not. Cis is demeaning. It makes you a subset of your own sex. Hell will freeze over before I give up the words woman and female. They have meaning and they belong to us. Not males who identify as trans or anyone else, just us.

Rtft

Not a single transgender person was murdered last year in the UK. Over two women a week were. Explain again why we are so “privileged” and less oppressed

Yep. Add those murdered women's figures to all the men and children also murdered last year and still no trans folk.
Doesn't quite fit their narrative does it...

Transwomen can and do face violence. See BBC article here from just today

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-58718183

Rtft? What the hell does that mean. I assume you mean read the fucking thread?

I don’t have time to read the fucking thread. I work, I have children, I have elderly parents, I have a million fucking things to do.

If that’s what you meant then you can foxtrot Oscar.

@Fitt

Non-men!

Absolutely says it all doesn't it?

That's all women amount to, and how they should be defined in the eyes of some people, non-men.

Makes me want to weep for our daughters.

@VladmirsPoutine the man in question was a paranoid schizophrenic who was hospitalised after he turned himself in. I’m not sure why the bbc didn’t think that was relevant.