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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

492 replies

Cwenthryth · 27/09/2021 23:07

I just saw this on Twitter

twitter.com/profalices/status/1442415750497509380?s=21

Between 2012 and 2018, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape in England and Wales were recorded as women.
www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/committees/current-and-previous-committees/session-6-citizen-participation-and-public-petitions-committee/correspondence/2021/pe1876_h-professor-alice-sullivan-submission-of-27-august-2021

I’m shocked at this statistic. Yes, a small proportion of these may be women charged with rape by joint enterprise. Prof Sullivan posted on Twitter she has requested to separate out those cases. But, as under the law in England and Wales, rape is a crime committed with a penis….. so these (alleged) rapists are “bodies with penises” being recorded as women in crime stats. So transwomen, right? So what does this mean….436 (alleged) transwomen rapists in 6 years? That is more than one a week. In England & Wales.

Have I misunderstood that? I’m really shocked.

OP posts:
Sophoclesthefox · 27/10/2021 19:27

@ArabellaScott

Okay, but hear me out, what about THESE scenarioos:
  1. Gender barriers are inhibiting, bulky and tend to rub, therefore women should clap harder.
  1. If you don't believe that seahorses can be horses by the power of wishes, you are literally killing sealife and should be IMPRISONED

CHOOSE ONE

I choose option d. It is forbidden to smoke cheroots anywhere except the members bar.
ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 19:33

Ooh, cheroots! And brandy?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 19:42

Cheroots and a dandelion and burdock?

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 19:57

I’d be in for cheroots and brandy. Grin

aliasundercover · 27/10/2021 20:04

I'd just like to try to clear something up for robin.

Is there anybody here who thinks that transgender people don't exist? Please state clearly if this is what you believe.

NumberTheory · 27/10/2021 20:12

@NecessaryScene

But, as under the law in England and Wales, rape is a crime committed with a penis….. so these (alleged) rapists are “bodies with penises” being recorded as women in crime stats. So transwomen, right?

You can't necessarily conclude that purely from the letter of the law.

For whatever reason, in the 2000s (I think) there was a drive to make the law sex-neutral here. But it appears they decided it was easier to have that effect by changing sentencing guidelines than the law itself.

So the guidelines say that for all practical purposes any form of "sexual assault by penetration" is sentenced the same as rape ("sexual assault by penis"), and the two are grouped together in the stats, despite "rape" still being a different offense.

If you look at the small print for the "rape" stats, you'll probably see that it encompasses offense codes 14 ("rape") and 21D ("sexual assault - penetration"). (Not sure of the code numbers - that's just an illustrative example. I've looked at this in the past, so recall how it worked).

HOWEVER, yes, given male/female offending behaviour it seems likely to me that a large number of those recorded for rape/penetration will be transwomen, most of the rest will be female accomplices, and there will be very few female perpetrators. But I don't know that we can see the data to be certain.

I had a look at the small print.

According to the report that goes with the data set, the statistics refer to 'rape-flagged' prosecutions. "Rape-flagged" prosecutions mean that, regardless of what the defendant was actually prosecuted with, either the police or CPS became aware that there was a rape involved.

The report refers separately to sexual assault by penetration, mainly in relation to CSEW (crime survey) data which tends to report the two categories together (along with attempts), and it points to Home Office Counting Rules for cases reported to the police. Those rules do not include sexual assault by penetration (or attempts) under 'rape'.

AnyOldPrion · 27/10/2021 20:27

Claps loudly (though quietly enough so as not to disturb Bat).

🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄

Statement 1

Sexuality is a biological characteristic.
It’s likely there is some biological involvement, though exactly how it works is not fully understood.

Men like women and women like men and that can't be changed.
Why would that be the case? It’s true that only a man and a women can reproduce, but love and sex are not restricted to acts of attempted reproduction in humans. Even when it was illegal, there were many who broke the law because that would mean living without love.

Anyone who says they're gay is lying because homosexuality isn't real.
Actually, sexual attraction has been tested scientifically and same sex attraction has been shown to exist.

It's a choice.

There is a degree of choice involved regarding whether to act on your sexual attraction and feelings of love, or not. Sexuality doesn’t make any difference to that though.

We should make sure that gay people can't join the Scouts because they're only doing so to rape little boys.
No idea why people would equate being gay with paedophilia, but people do have some odd ideas.

Statement 2

Gender is a biological characteristic.

Can you define how you’re using “gender” here please? If you mean “sex” then yes, that is a biological characteristic. If you mean gender identity, then there is no compelling proof that such a thing exists. There may, potentially be a biological basis that makes some men have more traits that are considered feminine and some women have more traits that are considered masculine, but I don’t believe that has been studied, perhaps because it’s not easy to define those traits.

Men are men and women are women and that can't be changed.

This is correct. Some people undergo a medical process called transitioning, where they attempt to change their appearance to be more like that of the opposite sex, but their sex remains unchanged.

Anyone who says they're transgender is lying because being transgender isn't real.

If they say they’re transgender because they are undergoing a medical transition then that makes sense. I think perhaps you need to define “being transgender”. It previously had the meaning I described, but now seems to be something that indicates nothing more than a feeling in someone’s head, which of course cannot be argued with, because people experience all kinds of different feelings. I have no reason to believe people are lying if they claim they have a certain feeling or thought, but I don’t think we should be changing laws and access to sexed spaces, based on nothing more than an unverifiable feeling.

It's a choice.

Whether to undergo medical transition is obviously a choice, as is any other medical procedure. The decision may be easy or difficult, depending on circumstances, but it is a choice nonetheless. Is it a choice to have certain feelings or thoughts? Not entirely, of course. However there are relatively new treatments such as CBT which are nowadays used to help people modify or challenge their thought processes in order to help them feel less distressed. CBT only started to be widely used after transition protocols had been established. Impossible to say whether it might help those who feel they are the wrong sex and find it distressing because, at present, any attempt to test it as a theory would be frowned upon.

We should make sure that transgender people can't use the women's toilets because they're only doing so to rape women.

Again, this is such an odd statement that I barely feel able to comment. Does anyone really think that? Certainly nobody has said it here, and if they did, it would quickly be removed. However, I will attempt to address it.

Some people who feel they are transgender are women, so of course they should use women’s toilets if they want to, though this might become problematic for them if they are medically transitioning and have taken sufficient testosterone that they look male. It seems unlikely women who are transitioning would be using women’s toilets with the purpose of harming other women. More likely they are using them because they always have, and feel safer doing so.

Male people who are transitioning perhaps do not feel comfortable in toilets and changing rooms for their own sex, but there’s no reason that discomfort means that they should move into women’s spaces. It is more logical to create third spaces. Obviously not all men who choose to use women’s spaces are predators, but men’s rate of criminal offending and violence is significantly higher than that of women, and they have greater physical strength, on average. Therefore, I believe men should not use women’s spaces, regardless of any medical processes, and particularly not because of internal feelings they claim they have, in the absence of any medical intervention.

Hope that helps, though I’m not really sure what point you were trying to make.

MultiStorey · 27/10/2021 20:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

timeisnotaline · 27/10/2021 21:41

@robinr66 ignoring those two ridiculous statements just like you have ignored the many comments that of course acknowledge trans people exist, I want to know why you haven’t noticed any of the many many threads on Wayne cousins, on policemen murdering women, on men strangling women during sex and getting away with in court or light sentences that claim the drunk unconscious woman consented, or men murdering women and children and the news being full of what great citizens they were really, on Sabina nessa, another murdered woman who got less news time probably because she wasn’t white. There is SO MUCH of this. It doesn’t all get locked away in this board as it’s not about gender, but there is so much of it on mumsnet. You must be legally blind not to see it, or you just care so little for anything that doesn’t fit your world view that you can’t even register it exists. (Which is starting to seem how you feel about homosexuals based on those two ridiculous statements you put up)
Unlike you as you brush past all this, we are concerned with the safety of women, and now I’m getting angry because how dare you come onto this board and lie that we don’t care about this.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 22:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 22:11

@ArabellaScott

Yes, Helleofabore, yes!

Come on, ladies! If we all clap harder maybe the unicorn will appear! Come on!

I reckon youve got more chance of clapping and a unicorn appearing than ive got asking this question again

And where are the ‘posts that are "so extreme that they likely cross the threshold into criminal offense’

And while im here which are the 6 other posters that have broken cover?

Receipts or it didn’t happen …as the yoith say

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 23:26

Frankly, I think I've been pretty gentle with you - far more gentle than you have any right to expect, given your views.

Try saying some of this stuff to people in real life. You'll quickly learn a) what value society places on people like you and b) what real consequences are.

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 23:32

I mean, if you can't see the dozens of comments that say exactly this (including the one immediately below your) then you're in denial.

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 23:37

I just don’t think that they can compel me to share their take on their identity, agree that their interpretation of the world is the only possible correct one, or support the belief that gender identity ought to supplant sex in how we organise civil life in this country

But that is exactly what you're doing. They aren't trying to define you, they are trying to define themselves in a way they feel comfortable with.

But you are defining them in a way that you feel comfortable with. You're insisting that your beliefs matter more. And you're doing so proudly, openly saying that what they want and what they feel doesn't matter to you. Someone else must define themselves according to your criteria and what makes you comfortable.

The fact that you can't see how insane that is makes me want to bang my head on a table.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 23:38

@robinr66

Frankly, I think I've been pretty gentle with you - far more gentle than you have any right to expect, given your views.

Try saying some of this stuff to people in real life. You'll quickly learn a) what value society places on people like you and b) what real consequences are.

Who are you talking to?

Seriously, you need to put a name in or something

Reptar · 27/10/2021 23:39

I defy you to find a statement that threatening made by the women of this board. It didn't take long for you to lose your temper with the uppity women and out yourself.

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 23:40

Well, you're not looking very hard. From the post immediately above yours:

So are you saying that transgender women are pretending to be women?

Yes!

Literally one post up.

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 23:42

Yeah, you're right, sorry - this isn't exactly the friendliest of forum technology and apparently replying to a post doesn't quote it.

Zebradanio · 27/10/2021 23:43

what real consequences are

The consequences being?

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 23:44

@robinr66

Yeah, you're right, sorry - this isn't exactly the friendliest of forum technology and apparently replying to a post doesn't quote it.
No it doesnt

Its the only forum im on so im kinda used to it

Just press the quote button, that should do it

Bonsaibreaker · 27/10/2021 23:44

So are you saying that transgender women are pretending to be women?

Yes

Are you saying this quote is a criminal act Robin?

ErrolTheDragon · 27/10/2021 23:48

@robinr66

Frankly, I think I've been pretty gentle with you - far more gentle than you have any right to expect, given your views.

Try saying some of this stuff to people in real life. You'll quickly learn a) what value society places on people like you and b) what real consequences are.

Wow.
timeisnotaline · 27/10/2021 23:50

a) what value society places on people like you
Charming, but hits the nail on the head. Have you looked again for some of the many discussions on violence and systemic neglect of women? We already know what value society places on us. There’s a good thread currently for this about the frequent complete absence of care and concern for women who’ve just given birth in the nhs. It’s not just male violence against women, it’s systemic neglect and dismissal and you’re campaigning to extend that harm.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 23:50

@Zebradanio

what real consequences are

The consequences being?

Thrush
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 23:51

Thats my best guess