More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

[Cwenthryth]

I just saw this on Twitter

twitter.com/profalices/status/1442415750497509380?s=21

Between 2012 and 2018, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape in England and Wales were recorded as women.
www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/committees/current-and-previous-committees/session-6-citizen-participation-and-public-petitions-committee/correspondence/2021/pe1876_h-professor-alice-sullivan-submission-of-27-august-2021

I’m shocked at this statistic. Yes, a small proportion of these may be women charged with rape by joint enterprise. Prof Sullivan posted on Twitter she has requested to separate out those cases. But, as under the law in England and Wales, rape is a crime committed with a penis….. so these (alleged) rapists are “bodies with penises” being recorded as women in crime stats. So transwomen, right? So what does this mean….436 (alleged) transwomen rapists in 6 years? That is more than one a week. In England & Wales.

Have I misunderstood that? I’m really shocked.

Because of the parallel. Prejudice follows the same patterns. Always has. And it's useful to take someone's position on one controversial issue and extrapolate that to another that is much more black and white - tends to focus the mind when people realise that their arguments against transgender rights are exactly the same arguments that racists make against racial equality...

Racial inequality was reduced when segregation ended. The group with less power, black people, wanted segregation to end, because the system was put in place and maintained by those with more power.

Women are the group with less power when we are discussing sex segregation. Women do not generally want sex segregation to end. They argue that they are at a physical disadvantage to men (regardless of the claimed gender identity of those men).

So are you saying that women arguing for the retention of sex segregation are like white people arguing to retain racial segregation? Because it seems to me you are ignoring/reversing the relative power of the two groups in question.

And you may be arguing for an end to sex segregation, but most transactivists are arguing for men to be able to use women’s spaces at will.

The equivalent in terms of apartheid would be for white people to claim they were black and demand access to the spaces that black people used, despite the black people saying that caused them distress.

Can you explain the parallels please? The situations and arguments appear wholly different.

I thought the the legal definition of "rape" was penetration by penis...so females can't be guilty of rape. Of course, they can commit sexual assault - I'm not saying all women are angels, but these can't be female crimes...or am I wrong?

@robinr66

My point is that s/he's revealed what she really thinks - that's transgender people don't exist, because s/he doesn't believe in them

I'm glad s/he's said that. It's much better to be open about your prejudice. I imagine that most people on here secretly think the same and probably get a bit tired of having to pretend otherwise.

Fortunately, the floodgates have opened now and we can all stop pretending that it's to do with statistics and everything to do with prejudice against transgender people. See how much easier things become when we can talk about the actual problem?

[See what I mean, mods? This is what I was trying to get at.]

This thread is about the fact that there is a distinct possibility that males have been included in the prosecuted rape stats for females.

Your refusal to accept that people have the right to discuss this has now become the issue.

You call someone prejudiced for pointing out that these are male statistics, if they are included in the figures. These are SEX based statistics. I am not sure why you are going to continue to double down here.

If you have evidence that transitioned males no longer commit crimes in the same style and the same rate as all males, please post it. Maybe we have missed these new statistics???

Otherwise, at the moment there is no evidence at all that transitioned males commit crimes at the same rate or the same type of crime as females.

You are getting very caught up in gender when we are discussing SEX.

I am quite sure that the mods are very well aware of all these arguments, they have to moderate them daily. Your posts are by no way the first of this style (except I have not seen 'fat fingers' as an excuse before) they have seen today, I am sure.

In all seriousness, if you are unable to discuss the issues without resorting to making negatvie personal comments, does that not perhaps make you wonder why? Why is it you're unable to argue the topic and issues, but find yourself reaching for ways to comment on the people involved? Could it be that your argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny or debate?

I've always wondered what happens to these people that will stop existing because someone doesnt "believe" in them. Do they vanish in a puff of smoke?

@GarageFlower123

I thought the the legal definition of "rape" was penetration by penis...so females can't be guilty of rape. Of course, they can commit sexual assault - I'm not saying all women are angels, but these can't be female crimes...or am I wrong?

Garage, there is, as I understand it, the very small possibilty that women can be convicted for 'joint enterprise' in a rape case. I don't think this is something that happens often, I understand it is vanishingly rare. But perhaps someone else has data or a more thorough understanding.

Otherwise, then yes, I think these will be rapes by males, using a penis, can't really be otherwise.

Apologies, it was actually you (and a half a dozen other people now) who finally decided to break cover and admit their issue actually has nothing to do with statistics but is rather predicted on a belief that transgender people don't exist at all.

I call it a "belief" because that's what is - like a believing in unicorns, anyone who rejects scientific fact in favour of their own personal option isn't being rationale.

@GingerPCatt

I've always wondered what happens to these people that will stop existing because someone doesnt "believe" in them. Do they vanish in a puff of smoke?

Dunno, Ginger, but I'm damned if I'm going to stop clapping to find out!

Trans women are women

Well if this premise was true, then there would be a good reason for trans women to be segregated into women's spaces where segregation is necessary.. But it's not true. This argument is based on a faulty premise. Trans women are biological males. And sex segregated services are there to protect and safeguard those born as women. Those who have female bodies.

I support the rights of trans women to live their lives in safety and free from persecution. To wear what they want, call themselves what they want, dress however they want. But to say they are actually women and should be able to uses the spaces designated for biological women. Why? I don't get it. It sounds so illogical to me.

@robinr66

I mean, it's not really possible to explain why you think someone is prejudiced in a positive way that isn't personal. It's not an attack but its not a compliment either...

And yet... it was personal. And I would call that an attack. Not a snide aside, not a snarky retort. An attack.

You have persisted in calling me a transphobe.

Please tell me where you have been proportionately denigrated on this thread?

Unicorns? Fuck me.

@AnyOldPrion

Because of the parallel. Prejudice follows the same patterns. Always has. And it's useful to take someone's position on one controversial issue and extrapolate that to another that is much more black and white - tends to focus the mind when people realise that their arguments against transgender rights are exactly the same arguments that racists make against racial equality...

Racial inequality was reduced when segregation ended. The group with less power, black people, wanted segregation to end, because the system was put in place and maintained by those with more power.

Women are the group with less power when we are discussing sex segregation. Women do not generally want sex segregation to end. They argue that they are at a physical disadvantage to men (regardless of the claimed gender identity of those men).

So are you saying that women arguing for the retention of sex segregation are like white people arguing to retain racial segregation? Because it seems to me you are ignoring/reversing the relative power of the two groups in question.

And you may be arguing for an end to sex segregation, but most transactivists are arguing for men to be able to use women’s spaces at will.

The equivalent in terms of apartheid would be for white people to claim they were black and demand access to the spaces that black people used, despite the black people saying that caused them distress.

Can you explain the parallels please? The situations and arguments appear wholly different.

But, in this scenario, women aren't the opresssed - they're the oppressors. They're not the black people in this scenario, they're the whites. In this case, the power rests entirely with them. That's why the parallel works.

Apologies, it was actually you (and a half a dozen other people now) who finally decided to break cover and admit their issue actually has nothing to do with statistics but is rather predicted on a belief that transgender people don't exist at all.

Why are you lying?

We can read the thread no poster has said that at all.

I know men are not women, because that’s straightforward logic. If that makes me prejudiced, then I suspect that more than 99% of human beings are equally prejudiced.

I also know that only those with weak arguments need to resort to name-calling and ad hominem attacks as well. I wonder what knowing that makes me?

The whole 'women have all the power' argument is straight from the Incel handbook - it's such nonsense as to be laughable.

Female supremacists! Whoop!

But, in this scenario, women aren't the opresssed - they're the oppressors. They're not the black people in this scenario, they're the whites. In this case, the power rests entirely with them. That's why the parallel works.

So you’re reframing the argument by claiming that women have more power than men?

How does that work exactly? Can you explain the sudden reversal?

@robinr66

Apologies, it was actually you (and a half a dozen other people now) who finally decided to break cover and admit their issue actually has nothing to do with statistics but is rather predicted on a belief that transgender people don't exist at all.

I call it a "belief" because that's what is - like a believing in unicorns, anyone who rejects scientific fact in favour of their own personal option isn't being rationale.

Please point out the "half dozen other people now who finally decided to break cover and admit their issue actually has nothing to do with statistics but is rather predicted on a belief that transgender people don't exist at all".

Thank you.

ArabellaScott

I did mention unicorns before ....

joins in the clapping....

I call it a "belief" because that's what is - like a believing in unicorns, anyone who rejects scientific fact in favour of their own personal option isn't being rationale.

I do love the irony of that statement, @robinr66, as you also said that "transwomen are women", when they are men.

Wow, that post is stunning, and not in a good way. I hope it is not deleted.

The one poster on this thread who has insulted and smeared others with abandon has now stated that it is the recipients of such invective whose posts are possible crime scenes.

And all because other posters won't obey the diktat that they shouldn't look at things more closely. Or question the 'fat finger' epidemic explanation.

Is there anywhere more scurrilous to go? Well maybe the bit where women seem to be the cause of every bad thing that happened to everyone on earth. Well to men, 'cos they are the only ones that matter and deserve mention. Would that not be an intrinsically transphobic position though, as you would be referring to women as a discrete sex class?

But, in this scenario, women aren't the opresssed - they're the oppressors. They're not the black people in this scenario, they're the whites. In this case, the power rests entirely with them. That's why the parallel works.

That's not true. How can women be the oppressors? When it's women who are the victims of sexual assault and rape? Women don't have the power. There's many women here trying to protect their rights to keep themselves safe, and you call them the oppressors? Why don't you support women's safety? I'm genuinely confused.

In some case, these posts are so extreme that they likely cross the threshold into criminal offences.

Gosh..... criminal offences. Please highlight the posts and educate us.

but is rather predicted on a belief that transgender people don't exist at all.

What does this mean? I haven't seen anyone say that. If transgender people didn't exist then there would be no conversation about this would there. But there is. Which has seemingly been going on for years. So transgender people must exist.

Please point out the "half dozen other people now who finally decided to break cover and admit their issue actually has nothing to do with statistics but is rather predicted on a belief that transgender people don't exist at all".

Thank you.

I suspect I may have moved from slipping mask to scurrilous non-believer.

The chanting of repentance mantras, with judicious use of maracas (as a change from the more usual tambourine) is surely not far away.