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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starker: Not only women have a cervix

314 replies

WildRunner · 26/09/2021 21:17

This has made me cross.

Labour conference: Not right to say only women have a cervix, says Starmer www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58698406

I'm about to go for my smear test. Any man who feels like a woman is welcome to have a speculum inserted into his non-existent cervix - as long as it isn't at the expense of appointments for biological women.

OP posts:
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HarrisonStickle · 27/09/2021 03:07

Onto talking about people with vulvas etc. Shaaba doesn't feel she's been reduced to her body parts by being called a "person who menstruates" and realises that it's only being inclusive to trans men. Personally, I'd feel saying "women and trans men" is inclusive and that talking about people as their body parts is not inclusive. Why on earth not just say women and trans men. I get that some women don't menstruate and nor do some trans men. However, when has a non-menstruating woman ever taken offence at being included in menstruation advice even though she herself doesn't menstruate.

I disagree strongly on this, not just because I feel it does reduce people to body parts but also because that reduction forms part of the mysogynist's armoury against women.

I'm aware this may sound as if it's falling into the smearing a lot of people with the same brush when it's only a few issue, but I think that mysogyny is still such a huge problem for women that anything that gives free rein to it isn't a good move.

OldCrone · 27/09/2021 03:19

It came at the end of a bit where he said that no child in the UK had been given hormones

That's not true. Helen Webberley has prescribed hormones for children. She gave testosterone to a 12 year old girl.

HarrisonStickle · 27/09/2021 03:38

@OldCrone

It came at the end of a bit where he said that no child in the UK had been given hormones

That's not true. Helen Webberley has prescribed hormones for children. She gave testosterone to a 12 year old girl.

Yeah, I wonder why they said that. Did they not know? I didn't get any sense of guile from them. They're academics though so they will argue a position and back up that position with papers etc which is all fine and what they (mostly) did. However, academics are also notorious for ignoring articles and research that doesn't fit their argument! Grin
Porridgealert · 27/09/2021 04:21

@ozzyteabiscuit
"Just offering some wisdom so there is no confusion regarding appointments being given to individuals who don't have a cervix because that isn't what is happening"

I'm not really that fussed over the argument and it's good to hear a different side argued on here, but I have to point out that transwomen have taken official complaints out against their gps because they had not been called for routine smears. They said to be left off the list, even though they didn't have a cervix, was discriminatory. So I think you might find that GPs, to avoid legal fees, might indeed be giving appointment to bodies with no cervixes. Sorry, is that the proper term these days?

Sparklfairy · 27/09/2021 04:38

Worth noting that the evidence of violence by trans women in women's spaces is far less than the evidence of violence against trans women in men's spaces.

Yes, you're absolutely right @ozzyteabiscuit. And do you know why? Because the problem is male violence. Yet in the delightfully misogynistic society we live in, instead of tackling the root of the problem, it's decided that women should simply 'shift up' and sacrifice our own spaces in order to accomodate transwomen.

Nobody should be in fear of violence when using the toilet, for example. But why is no one focussing on the male violence that transwomen are trying to get away from, but screaming at women for wanting to protect their single sex spaces?

Not to mention of course, that if a violent man has decided to target a transwoman, all he has to do is 'identify as a woman' and follow said transwoman into the women's toilets to attack her... so now nobody is safe from male violence...

But that's fine, all in the name of inclusivity eh.

WarriorN · 27/09/2021 05:35

It's all been around trans women again.

Surely the right answer is "yes, only women and trans men have cervixes . This matters as they can both get cervical cancer, because they both have xx genes and bodies."

EdgeOfACoin · 27/09/2021 05:42

I don't like the term 'women and transmen' when talking about cervixes because it implies that 'woman' means something other than 'adult human female'.

I don't know what that 'other' is. What am I identifying as, ozzie? On another thread I asked this question and was told by another poster that she identified as a woman because she always wanted to bear children and liked traditionally feminine things.

Is thar your definition of a woman, ozzie? Are 'women' people who want to bear children and like traditionally feminine things?

Also, you may recall that I asked you a question ages ago about how one 'lives as a male'. I gave you the example of Freddy McConnell who identifies as a man but who, after receiving a Gender Recognition Certificate, underwent IVF treatment in order to conceive and bear a child.

In your view, is that 'living as a man'? (How does that square with the poster on the other thread who said that the desire to bear a child was part of her gender identity as 'woman'?)

You also dislike the terms 'male' and 'female' as categories for biological sex. However, these terms extend far beyond just humans. Holly trees, for instance, are male or female depending on whether they bear berries.

Please can you tell me how we can work out the internal gender of holly trees, since you reject the idea of 'male' and 'female' referring to reproductive function? Is it possible to misgender a holly tree?

Btw, I ask a lot of questions and very rarely get replies. I've watched a lot of Jamie and Shaaba in my time. They seem nice, but they never really cover the questions I have. I thought they might, because Jamie has a PhD in gender, but they don't.

Nevertheless, since you are open minded enough to read Joyce's book, I am prepared to give Jammidodger another go.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/09/2021 06:59

Just because I believe trans women are women and trans men are men doesn't mean I disagree with science. I have a masters in science, facts are facts.

Yes, just like there are scientists who are creationists, there are scientists who adopt all kinds of pseudoscientific faith based beliefs.

Mumobag · 27/09/2021 07:03

@EdgeOfACoin that's why it makes more sense to say 'Women and other people with a cervix' (or whatever term defines the people you're trying to reach). Using 'women and trans men' doesn't include female non-binary people either.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/09/2021 07:04

You've missed my exact point, of course you are a woman there is no doubt in your mind and my mind that it does not change your gender.

She's a woman because of her female sexed body, that's the only reason. Not because she feels she is one. Having female body parts removed does not change your sex and literally no one here thinks it does. You are being ridiculous.

"Gender" is a social construct based on sex stereotypes. Sex is material reality.

EdgeOfACoin · 27/09/2021 07:08

[quote Mumobag]@EdgeOfACoin that's why it makes more sense to say 'Women and other people with a cervix' (or whatever term defines the people you're trying to reach). Using 'women and trans men' doesn't include female non-binary people either.[/quote]
Female Non-binary people are women.

Unless there's an alternative definition of 'woman'? If so, please could you provide it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/09/2021 07:13

Worth noting that the evidence of violence by trans women in women's spaces is far less than the evidence of violence against trans women in men's spaces.

Yes, you're absolutely right @ozzyteabiscuit.

I'm not sure they are. Citation please.

WarriorN · 27/09/2021 07:13

This argument is tedious and dangerous:

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/09/2021 07:17

Why does it matter that you don't understand how somebody feels something. Just accept that they feel it, especially when it doesn't affect you any any way.

I know I am late but @ozzyteabiscuit could you explain why, when women tell you they feel something, you just dismiss it?

Is it that the feelings of wmen just don't matter?

That when they see something being imposed upon them they must just silently accept it?

Being able to self identify??
Sexual harrassment
Rape?

Porridgealert · 27/09/2021 07:22

@CuriousaboutSamphire. Can you tell me why people write wimin or wimmin instead of women? Too many posters are doing it for it to be a spelling mistake so what point are you making. Thanks.

Naunet · 27/09/2021 07:25

@ozzyteabiscuit

Why are people so threatened by inclusivity. It does not affect you at all. It could make a huge difference to the lives of transgender individuals though.

Your opinion of the term trans man doesn't change what it means.

Trans man is an individual with XX chromosomes who identifies as male. That's a fact, just because you don't agree with the term doesn't change the context of the article. Just offering some wisdom so there is no confusion regarding appointments being given to individuals who don't have a cervix because that isn't what is happening.

God I’m so sick of this stupid “inclusive” shit.

It’s not inclusive to remove the language women use to describe themselves, it’s not inclusive to deny reality for more than half the population to appease a vocal minority.

What happened to “no one is denying sex is real”? Because if that’s the case, transmen know they’re female and know they have a cervix, but let’s be honest here, this isn’t being done for them, is it?

As for your disgusting dismissal of women, telling us it doesn’t affect us, seriously, open your fucking eyes. Go tell women being locked up with rapists that they aren’t being affected.

dangerrabbit · 27/09/2021 07:35

Why does labour keep on going on about this crap instead of holding the government to account for their incompetent behaviour and providing a viable opposition

WarriorN · 27/09/2021 07:55

I don't like the term 'women and transmen' when talking about cervixes because it implies that 'woman' means something other than 'adult human female'.

Edge I do agree with you.

In this context, if KS had answered like this it would have shifted the conversation around women v TW for the general masses and made the point that being female doesn't go away.

Being male doesn't go away.

Which leads to discussion around prisons and being female etc.

lazylinguist · 27/09/2021 08:01

Sex and gender are not the same thing.

You're dead right about that. Sex is a biological fact. 'Gender' is a bunch of sex-based stereotypes which society had slowly started to dismantle and disregard until some people decided that we should base laws, rights and who we are on them instead of actual facts.

Freeloadingtosser · 27/09/2021 08:04

Labour are tying themselves tighter and tighter in knots with this identity policy crap. I have been a labour supporter for a long time and have no good reason to vote for them now. It's really disappointing.

So, inclusion is important, but so is specificity so as not to reduce people (women mainly) to their constituent parts.

For purposes where distinction has to be made based on sex, how about acknowledging sex exists, it isn't a dirty or insulting concept then saying whom exactly is being referred to. So, for smear testing, 'women and trans men' and for prostate testing, 'men and trans women' or maybe 'pre op transwomen/ men'.

I feel as though the problem is desperately scrabbling for homogeneity whereas actually as long as trans men and trans women are treated with respect and inclusion, protected by law, where is the harm in accepting they didn't start life in their chosen gender and that will cause differences in limited circumstances (medical, prisons, sports etc). Leaps and bounds have been made in acceptance over the past few years, so why not head for true acceptance rather than erasure of the facts which is the way things are going.

lazylinguist · 27/09/2021 08:04

Why are people so threatened by inclusivity. It does not affect you at all.

So,what people are called and how they are classified doesn't affect biological women at all, but constitutes literal violence to transpeople? Right-oh.

CarpeVitam · 27/09/2021 08:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Floisme · 27/09/2021 08:28

I don't like the term 'women and transmen'
I totally agree with Edge and I'm surprised and quite alarmed to see it suggested so regularly on here.

If we say 'and' we're saying there are people other than women who have a cervix / get pregnant / menstruate. We're saying that women are a sub-group.

There are other forms of wording, e.g. 'women, including transmen' or 'women, irrespective of how they identify'

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/09/2021 08:29

[quote Porridgealert]@CuriousaboutSamphire. Can you tell me why people write wimin or wimmin instead of women? Too many posters are doing it for it to be a spelling mistake so what point are you making. Thanks.[/quote]
In that post it actually was a misper!

Wimbum, wimmin etc is a sarcastic note re the erasure of the word 'woman' from many places. This erasure is already happening in quite a few areas where products and/or services are for females only, from cervical screening services to sanitary pads.

It is also a reference, in part, to JK Rowlings tweet "There's a word for those people, isn't there? Wimbum, wimmin...". She didn't originate it, but certainly made it all the more well known.

HTH

WarriorN · 27/09/2021 09:05

There are other forms of wording, e.g. 'women, including transmen' or 'women, irrespective of how they identify'

Yes I think that's much better Flo.
The semantics are v important.