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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starker: Not only women have a cervix

314 replies

WildRunner · 26/09/2021 21:17

This has made me cross.

Labour conference: Not right to say only women have a cervix, says Starmer www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58698406

I'm about to go for my smear test. Any man who feels like a woman is welcome to have a speculum inserted into his non-existent cervix - as long as it isn't at the expense of appointments for biological women.

OP posts:
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CiaoForNiao · 27/09/2021 00:29

[quote ozzyteabiscuit]@CiaoForNiao

I can't reply to your quotes message, but I was alluded to what I believe your answers would be, in that yes she is a woman.

My answer is whatever they feel they are.

I don't believe somebodies gender changes based on what organs have been removed or added, they are still whatever gender they feel. Happy for them to have their own opinion on their own body though. [/quote]
Well I don't believe organ removal affects gender either because gender is made up but what has that got to do with referring to women (which is a biological term) as "individuals with a cervix"?
If you have a cervix you're a woman (biological term) regardless of what you identify as.

MimiDaisy11 · 27/09/2021 00:30

The “inclusivity” argument is just not true. If people cared about inclusivity then it’d work both ways. Why is it only females who have to be known as “people with cervixes” or “menstrators” etc? Whereas it’s just “men” when they’re talking about male issues. You never see “people with penises”.
It’s totally sexist and does even try to hide it.

I’m disappointed in Starmer as I thought he was trying to handle this issue with care. We need a good opposition and silliness like this just puts regular people off.

Also the argument that you should reconstruct reality based on people’s feelings doesn’t apply when it comes to people who feel they are a different race. Why do their feelings not matter in the same way?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/09/2021 00:37

Given that we've agreed that removing one's organs doesn't change people's sex, or the way they feel about themselves, then we come to a really, really, really big issue.

WHY ARE WE TELLING SOME PEOPLE TO GET THEIR UTERUSES REMOVED BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY FEEL ABOUT THEMSELVES, WHEN IT CARRIES SERIOUS RISKS FOR THEIR LONGTERM HEALTH? And encouraging them to spend thousands on getting this done as private surgery?

extract

Post Hysterectomy Vaginal Vault Prolapse

What is a vaginal vault prolapse?

Vaginal vault prolapse commonly occurs following a hysterectomy (removal of the uterus (womb)). Because the uterus provides support for the top of the vagina, this condition occurs in up to 40% of women after a hysterectomy.

In a vaginal vault prolapse, the top of the vagina gradually falls toward the vaginal opening. Eventually, the top of the vagina may protrude out of the body through the vaginal opening, effectively turning the vagina inside out. A vaginal vault prolapse is often accompanied by the weakness and prolapse of walls of the vagina.

www.oxfordgynaecology.com/conditions-we-treat/vaginal-prolapse/post-hysterectomy-vault-prolapse/

Fitt · 27/09/2021 00:42

Apparently I'm a man! I think it was because I said I liked roast chicken 🍗 and would want to be a barista rather than a cleaner or a host

That explains a lot. If this silly quiz is telling baristas they're men it's no surprise Starbucks are funding mastectomies for staff.

Fitt · 27/09/2021 00:46

Will Oldcrone get an answer?

If a cervix is male, female and non binary how can it be in the wrong body?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/09/2021 00:54

My gender is...

Male!

No matter what gender you were born, you sure think like a male! You're an analytical thinker, you like to get your hands dirty, perform physical labor and a cold beer at the end of the day. You sometimes thinks that the whole world rests on your shoulders, and that you have to take care of everything around you. A word of advice - turn to the other people in your life and seek help at times, it's just as rewarding

XiXimXerJinping · 27/09/2021 00:57

Inclusivity my arse...

I doubt any of these people would say the following sentences to be 'inclusive':

  • BRITISH PEOPLE and foreign nationals living in Britain, and people who live in Britain who have British passports who don't identify as British, and people from other countries that are not Britain but hate inclement weather LOVE TO MOAN and also not moan ABOUT THE WEATHER and other things not related to the weather.

  • YOU and anyone else of my acquaintance who enjoys outdoor activities in green spaces designed by humans SHOULD TAKE A WALK or run or hop, or hobble, or skip, or crawl, or wheel, or ride AROUND THE GARDENS, THEY ARE LOVELY THIS TIME OF YEAR and at other times of year depending on your preferences.

  • HUMANS EXIST BECAUSE God made us, Gods made us, Goddesses made us, and aliens put us here, and we sprung up out of the ground, and we sprang from nothingness, and we have always existed and we are part of a simulation, WE EVOLVED.

Inclusivity sounds lovely but it is also fucking useless.

AnnieSnap · 27/09/2021 00:58

Well as a member of the Labour Party, this is seriously depressing. I don’t think Kier really believes this rubbish. He is just trying to avoid alienating a large, nasty group, but sometimes you need to stand up and say what you believe. This is one of those times. So many people and organisations now tip toe around trans issues for fear of unleashing the trans activists against them 🤬

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/09/2021 01:03

I really want to know why "people with vaginas" should be paying for elective surgery to remove their uterus, ovaries and cervix, when it doesn't change their gender, doesn't change their sex/there is no such thing as sex, and DOES cost them money and endanger their longterm health?

Anyone?

Why can't they be "people with vaginas" and a gender identity for free?

Datun · 27/09/2021 01:05

ozzyteabiscuit

ducksalive
Isn't healthcare a touch difficult if there are no categories for male and female, men & women other than feelings?

Of course, healthcare is not straight forward anyway. Any time you need healthcare you will have your medical history discussed, this should include whether you have transitioned as it is medically relevant information, the same as telling them you are diabetic or have a family history of heart disease.

Oh dear I'm afraid you're not up to date, as well as demonstrating transphobia.

A doctor cannot reveal the sex of a trans patient without their permission, even when referring them to a specialist. So if there is a problem with, say, pregnancy, the doctor has to say something neutral like check for abdominal pain.

A GP on here also revealed that to discuss the sex of the patient without permission would be a criminal offence. Not civil, criminal.

Your desire for even a tiny bit of nuance will have you branded a transphobic bigot and, if you're a doctor, potentially arrested.

ANewCreation · 27/09/2021 01:06

They're not suggesting transgender women who don't have a cervix go and have a smear test. That would be ridiculous.

Yeah, I thought that and then I read this by TW India Willoughby:

I have a cervix. Get checked by the NHS every few years. Demeaning talking about it @AndrewMarr9. You absolutely know this a work-around way of calling women who are T men, leading into all the other bigotry. #Marr

Hmm
Datun · 27/09/2021 01:09

@ANewCreation

They're not suggesting transgender women who don't have a cervix go and have a smear test. That would be ridiculous.

Yeah, I thought that and then I read this by TW India Willoughby:

I have a cervix. Get checked by the NHS every few years. Demeaning talking about it @AndrewMarr9. You absolutely know this a work-around way of calling women who are T men, leading into all the other bigotry. #Marr

Hmm

A poster on here who was a transwomen couldn't wait to get their smear test letter in the post.
Ambersand · 27/09/2021 01:28

"Inclusive language" needs to be clear for whom it is being inclusive- people with a cervix, bodies with vaginas etc etc are not inclusive of people with poor English - the words man, woman, child are among the first words we learn in a new language

EccentricaGalumbits · 27/09/2021 01:29

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I really want to know why "people with vaginas" should be paying for elective surgery to remove their uterus, ovaries and cervix, when it doesn't change their gender, doesn't change their sex/there is no such thing as sex, and DOES cost them money and endanger their longterm health?

Anyone?

Why can't they be "people with vaginas" and a gender identity for free?

To get rid of periods I expect, a very regular and unpleasant reminder of one's true sex.
NiceGerbil · 27/09/2021 01:35

I have been saying for a while that in many orgs, charities, politicians of various colours, businesses and govt depts. The police prisons etc.The redefinition of the words man woman girl boy. Is done. Been accepted.

The fact that the words are used to mean sex still by pretty much the whole population is not seen as a problem. Those who have power, make policy, control workplaces, access to services. On board. Mostly.

And that the words male female are next. The application of male female to those of the opposite sex has been growing. The posts on here are a good example of this next step.

Result.

No words at all to describe the billions of female people (women girls) on the planet as a single distinct group.

None.

All the while men are men and boys are boys.

This is all about women.

And this sounds OTT. But it's about destroying everything we have experienced, our whole history. Our struggles. The fact of the gross oppression in parts of the world. And of course the everyday issues in the countries with less overt oppression (sexual harrassment, sexual assault, mass grooming and sexual exploitation, rape, DV, everyday sexism, inequalities around work and money, and a million more).

We are to be referred to by our reproductive organs, the very root of our millennia of oppression. Bodies with vaginas. Cunts. As so many men see us anyway. A walking selection of penis holes.

We are to be split into specific smaller groups and described by our biological parts and functions.

Not a distinct group. Not a group with a fundamental commonality- shared biology and with a shared experience and history due to our biology.

No words.
No name.
Nothing.

Make no mistake this is what the activists want.

And they are getting it done very very fast.

NiceGerbil · 27/09/2021 01:39

@AnnieSnap

Well as a member of the Labour Party, this is seriously depressing. I don’t think Kier really believes this rubbish. He is just trying to avoid alienating a large, nasty group, but sometimes you need to stand up and say what you believe. This is one of those times. So many people and organisations now tip toe around trans issues for fear of unleashing the trans activists against them 🤬
No one actually believes it.

Even the shouty activists and orgs.

This is about politics.

It's about men wanting to access the 'special treatment' that so many resent women and girls having. IE. Anything that men can't join in with.

Same dynamic as men who get angry about eg a women only swim session once a week.
Make no mistake. Stacks of seemingly nice men have a real problem with that sort of thing.

NoLanguageForOldWomen · 27/09/2021 01:45

So an individual with XY chromosome is a man.
Even though they have a uterus, ovaries, cervix, breasts and truly feels and believes they are a woman?

say what now???
Let's get back to basics here: is this hypothetical individual of the human species?

Dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 27/09/2021 01:47

@Franca123

Yep. Tory all the way. Never thought I'd say that. Wtaf is happening.
It's the only hope of undoing some of this damage given FPTP.
Quaggars · 27/09/2021 01:53

@WildRunner

This has made me cross.

Labour conference: Not right to say only women have a cervix, says Starmer www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58698406

I'm about to go for my smear test. Any man who feels like a woman is welcome to have a speculum inserted into his non-existent cervix - as long as it isn't at the expense of appointments for biological women.

Trans men. Trans men CAN have a cervix (as in born biologically female) You seem to be confused and thinking it means born men, which just isn't correct, it's not talking about trans women, born biologically male)
HarrisonStickle · 27/09/2021 01:58

@ozzyteabiscuit

If you don't want trans women in your women's spaces how do you feel about trans men being forced to stay in women's spaces.

When an individual who looks and sounds like a man cannot go into men's spaces and therefore has to be in women's spaces would you have a problem with this? Would they have to drop trow and prove they have the anatomy you associate with women. Or how about genetic testing results to prove what chromosomes they have?

I foresee problems with this solution too.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Avcp-e4bOs

If you want a trans voice and opinion feel free to watch a trans mans response to JKR.

I'm up to 26.10 on this video and it's been interesting so far.

However, Jamie has just said that violence against trans people is astronomical and a screenshot of an article appears stating 331 trans murders in a year. When I looked into the article, it is a worldwide statistic, and 1 of the murders was in the UK and 9 in the rest of Europe. Most of the murders were in Brazil.

Astronomical feels like hyperbole here. When you look at (cis) women statistics that show 87,000 women being murdered in 2017 (139 in UK), the trans rate is tiny in comparison.

This is the first time in the video that I've felt uneasy at what they're saying. I get that there are far fewer trans people than cis people, however to say "astronomical" feels something of a stretch. 1 is not astronomical.

I'll continue watching now and report back.

HarrisonStickle · 27/09/2021 02:19

They're talking now about predatory trans women and that because of a few people you can't deny the rights of an entire group. I agree with this. Muslims and people from the traveller community get this all the time. They are all, by some people, pushed under the umbrella of the few who commit crimes.

However, they state that there have been no cases whatsoever of men masquerading as women then commiting crimes against women. This puzzled me and I thought of the case of Karen White. I looked into it and Karen White is currently in a man's prison and is undergoing realignment surgery. So, despite being a violent criminal, she's still not pretending to be a woman because she is actually transitioning.

The thing that I wonder about with this though is that people like Karen will skew statistics because they were born men and will as a result be statistically more likely to commit violent crime. I feel this is a problem although can't articulate why exactly. Is that just my lack of knowledge? Statistics dictate service provision and this could be affected. I wonder if they'll talk about that aspect later in the film.

On I go!

Deliriumoftheendless · 27/09/2021 02:25

I’m not sure anyone who claims men can have a uterus and women can have a prostrate and it’s fine to call transmen “bodies with vaginas” are actually being inclusive when they don’t push for transwomen to be referred to as “bodies with a prostate”.

If this language is to include transpeople with vaginas/cervices/who menstruate then probably you ought to be clarifying that transpeople with penises/prostates/who produce sperm deserve the respect and inclusivity of being referred to in these inclusive, non-dehumanising ways.

I expect to see some of our dear friends clarifying that these terms are not just ok but should be widely used or else I may think they’re not that inclusive at all.

ducksalive · 27/09/2021 02:41

because of a few people you can't deny the rights of an entire group.

Safeguarding works exactly on the principle you can deny the wants of few for the protection of the many.

Assuming any group should be exempted from safeguarding is always a disaster because some of the initial cohort in the group will statistically be a risk and once a pathway to abuse becomes set others will join the group with the abuse opportunity specifically for that purpose.

HarrisonStickle · 27/09/2021 02:51

I'm at 45.12 now and Jamie's just mentioned puberty blockers. This I feel has been skipped over. It came at the end of a bit where he said that no child in the UK had been given hormones and it's mentioned the UK a bit on this subject. Which takes my mind back to when he said violence against trans people was astronomical but didn't say the stats they were showing were worldwide.

I feel they are being a bit naughty here by using different types of statistics and not saying so. Are hormones used elsewhere in the world? What are children's trans services like elsewhere? Yes they keep saying viewers can look into the articles etc themselves but I must be one of the few who's doing that, and I've only done it with a couple of their screenshots.

Anyway, back to puberty blockers. This bit was tagged onto the end of the no hormones used on children part. It was skimmed over, and no articles or evidence was cited, so I'm feeling a bit wary about this aspect and not convinced by their argument.

NiceGerbil · 27/09/2021 02:57

Well.

Iran is very much at the forefront of affording full surgery.

Incidentally. Homosexuality is punishable by death there.

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