Just had a row with a friend

[MordenLarch]

Just saw one of my oldest friends -talk turned to the gender debate (drunkly). Quickly turned into a row. He was saying:

• this is a niche issue - why don’t you use your anger against climate change?
• give me facts and figures about how many women are abused in prisons/DV shelters etc - I’m sure it’s not many

-you’ve been told this is an issue by the right wing press etc

• you’re old fashioned - lots of young people are behind this

Etc etc

Am I alone I’m thinking that people (especially on the left) just don’t get this?!

When pressed he didn’t think that people with a penis are women.

He didn’t seem to give a shit that women’s rights as a biological class of human are being systematically eroded.

What has happened to people?!

Sorry - am ranting!

Does he have a beard?

I'm liberal but people with a penis aren't women - think about that logically they aren't women. Totally agree they identify as women and that's not a problem but they aren't women. You can think of women's "eroded" rights and not accept that fact.
I still believe people that identify as women should be accepted- but they aren't women.

When pressed he didn’t think that people with a penis are women.

So he is happy for all spaces to be mixed-sex then, and can't imagine why anyone has a legitimate objection to this.

Sounds like a lot of spluttering to deflect from the fact he's a huge misogynist.

I think that male privilege means that many men really have no idea how vulnerable women are to male violence. Most women have experienced sex discrimination, unwanted sexual advances and many, many women have experienced sexual assault. Most men don't realise how vulnerable women feel e.g. walking or running alone or going out at night. They're just not aware as they've not experienced it themselves. Of course, some are aware and just don't care or think that it hardly ever happens so its not a big deal. Some men feel defensive when male violence is talked about as they feel they are being painted with the same brush.

I've had similar.

No-one thinks that men can become women; it's just that right-on leftie liberals with their "be nice" don't give a shit that being nice to some men means shitting on the majority of women.

I "shut up" to keep apparent family peace, but I'll never feel the same about the person involved.

It would be bad enough if they were all out TWAW, trans rights etc etc. But the fact that they aren't really down the rabbit hole, but still think women's rights are theirs to give away is infuriating.

I got the "when we were youth hosteling out women friends preferred to be in dorms with us" as a gotcha on women's spaces being for women.

When I pointed out that many women weren't with male friends that they wanted to share with, and that surely single sex (for those that wanted it) and mixed sex (for mixed sex friendship groups) should be ok, I got blank look and a "well I don't think that's necessary, surely it's simpler just to have everyone in together".

Zero understanding. 100% not giving a shit

He's a man it doesn't effect him and he can't fail to show he is a true soldier of the patriarchy by telling you to shut up and just get on with it.

Am I alone I’m thinking that people (especially on the left) just don’t get this?!

I'm sure your not alone in thinking that @MordenLarch. Most Many men don't understand.

A lot of men of the left care little about women's rights. There is always something more important they think we should be spending our time on.

It's always 'After the revolution, love'

Unfortunately I had very similar recently with my own brother.

Apparently he has 'a friend' who is a transwoman, who recently got beaten up in the men's loo, ergo had a right to use the women's loo.

When I tried to explain about the fear women have, that his own sisters have, he was dismissive. He kept belligerently saying that no one had ever been attacked by a transwoman, that it was 'implausible', that it 'would've been on the news', that he 'had never heard anything about' the things I was saying.

He also indirectly insulted my intelligence - "I've discussed this with post-grad students" and "I understand now why thinks of you the way he does" ( is another brother, who sexually abused me when I was 10, and is violent and deeply mysoginistic. )

He also claims to be liberal, and 'deep-thinking', and sensitive.

He is none of those things. And it was very upsetting to discover, if I'm honest.

Your use of he - tells me all I need to know, Yet another MAN who doesn't give a fucking shit about women and their rights or their safety at all. Too many of them around. I have sadly rethought most of my male friendships over the last few years. They have no idea, are not prepared to ask, if they are gay - consider this an attack on their lifestyle (despite being nowhere near trans) etc. It is very depressing.

Thanks all - I just found this so incredibly depressing that he just didn’t even get it a little bit. I was painted as some kind of crazy wingnut right wing bigot.

I told him the left will never get any kind of power again while they cling to this anti-science, nonsensical rubbish. I hope I’m right. I’m a lifelong Labour/and or Green voter but I can’t vote for them any more. They don’t give a shit about women. They either don’t care even slightly, or they hate women. Left-leaning men seem to care even less about women than conservative men. And that’s BLEAK.

@Shodan

Unfortunately I had very similar recently with my own brother.

Apparently he has 'a friend' who is a transwoman, who recently got beaten up in the men's loo, ergo had a right to use the women's loo.

When I tried to explain about the fear women have, that his own sisters have, he was dismissive. He kept belligerently saying that no one had ever been attacked by a transwoman, that it was 'implausible', that it 'would've been on the news', that he 'had never heard anything about' the things I was saying.

He also indirectly insulted my intelligence - "I've discussed this with post-grad students" and "I understand now why thinks of you the way he does" ( is another brother, who sexually abused me when I was 10, and is violent and deeply mysoginistic. )

He also claims to be liberal, and 'deep-thinking', and sensitive.

He is none of those things. And it was very upsetting to discover, if I'm honest.

That is just awful, I’m so sorry.

I would have a hard time seeing him again after that if I was you.

Shodan .

And I'm sorry, OP, but he sounds like a bit of a knob.

When I tried to explain about the fear women have, that his own sisters have, he was dismissive. He kept belligerently saying that no one had ever been attacked by a transwoman, that it was 'implausible', that it 'would've been on the news', that he 'had never heard anything about' the things I was saying.

He missed the news about Katie Dolatowski then who sexually assaulted two young girls one aged 10 and one aged 12 in the female toilets in a supermarket, held a knife to the neck of one of the girls, yeah they had nothing to be afraid of at all.

- give me facts and figures about how many women are abused in prisons/DV shelters etc - I’m sure it’s not many
How many does he think would make it matter? Can he give some figures? Ask him how many would be too many.

@Deliriumoftheendless

- give me facts and figures about how many women are abused in prisons/DV shelters etc - I’m sure it’s not many How many does he think would make it matter? Can he give some figures? Ask him how many would be too many.

Exactly. When I said “one is too many” he just waved me off.

It’s just misogyny. Makes me sick

@RedDogsBeg

When I tried to explain about the fear women have, that his own sisters have, he was dismissive. He kept belligerently saying that no one had ever been attacked by a transwoman, that it was 'implausible', that it 'would've been on the news', that he 'had never heard anything about' the things I was saying.

He missed the news about Katie Dolatowski then who sexually assaulted two young girls one aged 10 and one aged 12 in the female toilets in a supermarket, held a knife to the neck of one of the girls, yeah they had nothing to be afraid of at all.

Even when I talked about Karen White and others he didn’t seem to care.

Or the thousands of women and girls who are assaulted and raped daily can’t “identify out of” being a woman. Waved it off

When pressed he didn’t think that people with a penis are women.
Does your friend realise how transphobic he is being?

Left-leaning men seem to care even less about women than conservative men.

What makes you think conservative men care more about women than lefty blokes @MordenLarch?

This may help:
How can I/we/society differentiate between the fabulous, beautifully made up, karaoke singing, musical theatre loving 6’4” drag queen and the maliciously intentioned, voyeuritic, upskirting, misogynistic man who claims to be a woman? Because at the moment there is nothing for my five foot, six stone daughter to gauge the difference when she meets either in a public toilet/ woman’s refuge/ prison cell and if your friend can’t understand the confusion and fear thst we feel as women then he needs to reconsider his compassion snd empathy …

@Shodan

Unfortunately I had very similar recently with my own brother.

Apparently he has 'a friend' who is a transwoman, who recently got beaten up in the men's loo, ergo had a right to use the women's loo.

When I tried to explain about the fear women have, that his own sisters have, he was dismissive. He kept belligerently saying that no one had ever been attacked by a transwoman, that it was 'implausible', that it 'would've been on the news', that he 'had never heard anything about' the things I was saying.

He also indirectly insulted my intelligence - "I've discussed this with post-grad students" and "I understand now why thinks of you the way he does" ( is another brother, who sexually abused me when I was 10, and is violent and deeply mysoginistic. )

He also claims to be liberal, and 'deep-thinking', and sensitive.

He is none of those things. And it was very upsetting to discover, if I'm honest.

I’m sorry you had to listen to that. It seems to be a pattern: “where did you come by this crazy notion?!” “Have you accidentally read the Daily Mail?!” etc etc. Sexist and patronising. Makes me rage

It just goes to show that most people know full well what sex MTF trans people are, they just see them as special and fragile members of the male sex and think women should coddle their feelings. Without a backward glance to the feelings of women, even the traumatised victims of male violence. It's a profoundly sexist, misogynistic position.

@TooBigForMyBoots

Left-leaning men seem to care even less about women than conservative men.

What makes you think conservative men care more about women than lefty blokes @MordenLarch?

I may well be wrong, but I’m my experience it’s only been “caring” lefty/liberal men who trumpet TWAW etc and won’t brook any argument.

Whereas more right off centre men just don’t believe in any of it

@Shodan

Unfortunately I had very similar recently with my own brother.

Apparently he has 'a friend' who is a transwoman, who recently got beaten up in the men's loo, ergo had a right to use the women's loo.

When I tried to explain about the fear women have, that his own sisters have, he was dismissive. He kept belligerently saying that no one had ever been attacked by a transwoman, that it was 'implausible', that it 'would've been on the news', that he 'had never heard anything about' the things I was saying.

He also indirectly insulted my intelligence - "I've discussed this with post-grad students" and "I understand now why thinks of you the way he does" ( is another brother, who sexually abused me when I was 10, and is violent and deeply mysoginistic. )

He also claims to be liberal, and 'deep-thinking', and sensitive.

He is none of those things. And it was very upsetting to discover, if I'm honest.

I'm so sorry. How utterly heartbreaking and shocking to the core.

Subject matter aside, I'd have to take a giant step back from him for saying what he said.