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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Just had a row with a friend

79 replies

MordenLarch · 24/09/2021 22:12

Just saw one of my oldest friends -talk turned to the gender debate (drunkly). Quickly turned into a row. He was saying:

  • this is a niche issue - why don’t you use your anger against climate change?
  • give me facts and figures about how many women are abused in prisons/DV shelters etc - I’m sure it’s not many
-you’ve been told this is an issue by the right wing press etc
  • you’re old fashioned - lots of young people are behind this

Etc etc

Am I alone I’m thinking that people (especially on the left) just don’t get this?!

When pressed he didn’t think that people with a penis are women.

He didn’t seem to give a shit that women’s rights as a biological class of human are being systematically eroded.

What has happened to people?!

Sorry - am ranting!

OP posts:
TooBigForMyBoots · 24/09/2021 23:31

I may well be wrong, but I’m my experience it’s only been “caring” lefty/liberal men who trumpet TWAW etc and won’t brook any argument.

Whereas more right off centre men just don’t believe in any of it.

They still find ways to excuse male entitlement, keep women down and make their lives more difficult. They have throughout history. Just because "right wing men" voice different reasons for keeping women down than lefties, doesn't mean they care about women.

CharlieParley · 24/09/2021 23:31

In my experience men are generally clueless about the impact sexual and physical male violence has on women. At a dinner party last year, the dynamics required that all the men present listened to a young woman just out of her teens share her distress about the risk of male violence to her.

They were sympathetic but thought this was either her being overly worried or just in a particularly bad place where she lived. When they started to ever so gently say these things to her, three of the other women there started enlightening the men, including their husbands, about their own experiences. It was fascinating.

(I kept my mouth shut, because I know so much about this that I can easily hammer them with statistics, but as I'm campaigning on women's rights, men tend to just dismiss what I say as biased. And it was much better coming from women just talking about their lives.)

Very quickly, a pattern emerged, and these are bright, educated men, they recognised the pattern without issue. Their shock at the reality of harassment and violence women face at the hands of men was palpable.

That they were so utterly clueless though was eye-opening to me. These men all supported women's rights. Their behaviour was respectful. (I've spent enough time with sexist men who wouldn't have cared what the women thought.) And yet, no clue.

I cannot help thinking if the dynamics had allowed them to just dismiss the young woman outright, whether they would have bothered to listen to us. Luckily, best behaviour and all that meant they had no other choice and there's now half a dozen men out there who have an inkling of the issue.

But yeah, I now take it as a given that the average man does not know.

Waitwhat23 · 24/09/2021 23:31

Gender ideology has given men who truly dislike women and see them as lesser beings a socially accepted platform to say really awful things, the chance to throw in a few slurs as a bonus and be lauded as 'inclusive' for doing so.

CharlieParley · 24/09/2021 23:35

And I'm sorry that you had such upsetting conversations MordenLarch and Shodan. It really is uncomfortable to find out how little even men in our lives care.

Crouton19 · 24/09/2021 23:53

@Shodan

My brother too. His social media output went full on anti-JKR, how awful that victims of DV were being brainwashed by T*s. I had to mute then unfollow him. Four years ago he was all about #metoo, now he has another cause.

I put a fair amount of subtly feminist stuff on my social media. This evening I went back to have a look at his past posts - our other brother has liked them, not liked any of mine. He has 3 daughters. I feel very isolated now. Thankfully my husband is on our side!

NiceGerbil · 25/09/2021 02:31

He's a man.

Is the short answer.

Stacks of men just aren't really interested in 'women's issues'. Loads of men hate feminists which generally includes any woman with the temerity to express a strong interest in the issues that women and girls face. And if (when) the man points out why it's not important/ exaggerated etc. To DISAGREE. that's just awful. Man hater level feminist.

NiceGerbil · 25/09/2021 02:38

OP important question.

Who brought it up? Him or you?

IF him. Then IME it's always because.
They know it's potentially a sensitive topic for women. Something women can get really worked up about. And if they know a woman well they can guess pretty well if that's how she will feel.

So they light blue touchpaper and have some fun.

Fun things include:
Patronising
Devils advocating
Feeling all superior and rational (it's academic to them, not emotional) while they watch their prodding result in increasing anger upset. So emotional!
Throwing out made up scenarios and watching her struggle to come up with an answer
That sort of thing

It's happened to me loads. I finally realised what was going on. When with Weinstein men I worked with kept cornering me at the coffee machine and striking up conversations about rape fgs

Maybe it wasn't like that.

But. Who brought it up?

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 25/09/2021 02:45

On the whole (with, of course, many honourable exceptions), neither right-wing men nor left-wing men instinctively consider women to be full, equal human beings. But right-wing men do at least care about the value of what they perceive to be their property. Left-wing men don't even have that incentive to give a shit.

MordenLarch · 25/09/2021 02:46

@TooBigForMyBoots

I may well be wrong, but I’m my experience it’s only been “caring” lefty/liberal men who trumpet TWAW etc and won’t brook any argument.

Whereas more right off centre men just don’t believe in any of it.

They still find ways to excuse male entitlement, keep women down and make their lives more difficult. They have throughout history. Just because "right wing men" voice different reasons for keeping women down than lefties, doesn't mean they care about women.

Yes, good point. I guess it’s because most of the men I know are more left-leaning I see it from them more. But I get the sense that right wing men have more of a grasp of basic human biology at least
OP posts:
MordenLarch · 25/09/2021 02:51

@NiceGerbil

OP important question.

Who brought it up? Him or you?

IF him. Then IME it's always because.
They know it's potentially a sensitive topic for women. Something women can get really worked up about. And if they know a woman well they can guess pretty well if that's how she will feel.

So they light blue touchpaper and have some fun.

Fun things include:
Patronising
Devils advocating
Feeling all superior and rational (it's academic to them, not emotional) while they watch their prodding result in increasing anger upset. So emotional!
Throwing out made up scenarios and watching her struggle to come up with an answer
That sort of thing

It's happened to me loads. I finally realised what was going on. When with Weinstein men I worked with kept cornering me at the coffee machine and striking up conversations about rape fgs

Maybe it wasn't like that.

But. Who brought it up?

Well he brought it up by saying “you used to care much more about climate change, but now you’ve been sidetracked by this gender thing”. I explained that it’s possible to care about more than one thing at once, but he seems to think I’m such a moron that I’ve simply had my head turned by accidentally glancing at a right-wing newspaper or similar. (I’m being facetious but you get my point)
OP posts:
PutYourBackIntoit · 25/09/2021 02:54

Men only see it when it impacts them.

NiceGerbil · 25/09/2021 03:00

Ah bingo OP.

How depressing I called it.

He raised it.
He knew it was probably something you felt strongly about.
It was all for his own entertainment.

Sorry.

Like I say it's not uncommon.

Just don't discuss it with him again. If he raises it say we're out to have fun let's not get into that again. And don't be drawn in.

He may start by saying he's thought about your points. Or he's changing his mind. Etc.

Don't be drawn in!

His behaviour is typical male poking at woman to watch her get emotional. And feel superior. Enjoy your frustration. He wasn't treating you as an equal friend. It was a male dominance thing.

I would not see a friend in the same light after that. Stay friends prob. But in the knowledge he did that.

PanicPrevention · 25/09/2021 03:13

In reply without rtft and only in answer to your op; nothing has changed.
Mens feelings, mens wants and mens egos are still top of the table.
Women are still not seen as fully functioning human beings, capable of our
Own wants and needs, our own feelings, desires and dreams, even our own honest motivations.
We are just non men.
Everything we do or say is petty or designed to manipulate the men in some way.
That is all we were and its all we still are to great too many (people)

PanicPrevention · 25/09/2021 03:20

Im sorry you had to deal with such a prick, personally I learned to cut these (people) out, some time ago.

oldwomanwhoruns · 25/09/2021 08:08

Some facts? Try
transcrimeuk.com
There's a useful keyword search.

Abhannmor · 25/09/2021 08:11

@TurquoiseBaubles

I got the "when we were youth hosteling out women friends preferred to be in dorms with us" as a gotcha on women's spaces being for women.

When I pointed out that many women weren't with male friends that they wanted to share with, and that surely single sex (for those that wanted it) and mixed sex (for mixed sex friendship groups) should be ok, I got blank look and a "well I don't think that's necessary, surely it's simpler just to have everyone in together".

Zero understanding. 100% not giving a shit Angry

Mixed sex dorms stopped me hostelling a few years ago tbh. Hard to shower and then getting your undies on under a quilt. Absolute pain in the hole.Was trying to furtively dress one morning thinking everyone had gone to breakfast when I heard an American woman say ' It's OK honey , you don't have to be quiet - I'm already awake.' Glancing across I was relieved to see she was ' of a certain age ' , like myself. I'm a penis haver btw. So now I book a private room.
Shodan · 25/09/2021 09:46

Thanks all, I appreciate the sympathy. I wanted to post about it when it happened, but he knows I'm on Mumsnet and he's a habitual forum user so I didn't want him to trawl on here.

It's the wolf in sheep's clothing that's the most shocking thing I suppose. An extension of the 'Nice Guy' philosophy I guess.

At least I had my sister there, we backed each other up.

I won't be having much contact with him going forward for sure.

CreepingDeath · 25/09/2021 12:48

@NiceGerbil

He's a man.

Is the short answer.

Stacks of men just aren't really interested in 'women's issues'. Loads of men hate feminists which generally includes any woman with the temerity to express a strong interest in the issues that women and girls face. And if (when) the man points out why it's not important/ exaggerated etc. To DISAGREE. that's just awful. Man hater level feminist.

Yes exactly, even the 'nice guys' are only really nice if women behave the way we are supposed to and maintain the pecking order. If we speak up, or say no, or get angry or step out of line, the mask often slips.

I'm sorry OP, it's really hard when people who you love and respect don't seem to see the issues, or just don't care. Men don't care because they don't have to care. It just doesn't affect them in the same way.

One of my best friends is gay, and I haven't spoken about this to him, as I just know he will take it as an attack on his lifestyle, and I don't want to lose him as a friend.

However, it may to come to a stage where I we have a talk (fight?) about it in future, and then I don't know what will happen. I'm not willing to lie about this, or ignore it - it is too important.

Franca123 · 25/09/2021 12:59

In defense of men. My Dad and husband know full well that gender ideology is dangerous bollocks. They're the first ones to call out the nonsense and they do it loudly. I find my male friends generally better on this shit in general. I have three close female friends who like to think they're left wing and come out with all sort of nonsense supporting gender woo woo. I'm playing a long game with them where I gently challenge whilst ensuring we don't come to blows over it. If they said anything as awful as the original poster said, I'd certainly give them my full opinion. Some things are beyond the pail.

Congressdingo · 25/09/2021 13:16

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It just goes to show that most people know full well what sex MTF trans people are, they just see them as special and fragile members of the male sex and think women should coddle their feelings. Without a backward glance to the feelings of women, even the traumatised victims of male violence. It's a profoundly sexist, misogynistic position.
We are of course everyone's mother, if that doesn't suit us? Oh well we are obviously mentally unwell. What other possible reason could there be for us to exist. It's not like we want or have lives separate from men in all their guises.
rabbitwoman · 25/09/2021 13:31

My husband and brother are two of my best allies in this! They know all about Yaniv, Karen Green, Marion millar, Helen Joyce, jazz jennings etc, know the science, have read the studies (my husband spent a whole day researching puberty blockers) and agree 100% with me.

I am quite close to giving up with everyone else, though. I get shut down every time by friends who say 'well, my daughter knows a trans kid and I think we should be kind....' 'I don't see the problem with it....' 'but Laurel Hubbard didn't even win!'.... Its frustrating to have to try and explain again and again, and watch their faces glaze over.....

Although I was v amused when, at a dinner party over the Summer someone said, oh my God, have you heard about that Keira Bell case, it's awful what is going on, have you read about it..... I let her tell me all about it and then scrolled through my phone to the link to THAT VERY NEWS STORY I had shared months earlier where she had commented 'yeah, but that's just one person though, that should not stop trans kids getting what care they need or they will kill themselves.....'.... I watched the wheels kind of whir and grind as she tried to process it..... That I had been right all along......

Shodan · 25/09/2021 14:29

There's very much an element of NAWALY about it- Not All Women Are Like You, ergo Your Opinion Is Irrelevant. Obviously Other Women are kinder than you.

So it goes:

"Well MY (probably fictional) female friend doesn't have a problem with it"

to

"Are you on your period?/Have you been reading the Daily Mail?/Have you been on one of your forums?"

and then

"It's not as big an issue as climate change/BLM/Brexit, so why are you getting so worked up?"

and finishing up with

"You're transphobic"

"You hate men"

Etc etc.

(And no, of course NAMALT. And of course some men genuinely care about women's rights.

But not enough of them. And it's hard to find them, when so many are weak and hide behind their Nice/Liberal Guy facade until they're directly challenged.)

WarriorN · 25/09/2021 15:15

Apparently he has 'a friend' who is a transwoman, who recently got beaten up in the men's loo, ergo had a right to use the women's loo.

Tell him about SevenHex, a TW, who has been campaigning for better safety for TW in men's los or 3rd spaces and has been lobbying the Scottish parliament in support of women's rights.

WarriorN · 25/09/2021 15:16

And fixgoose, I'm so very sorry your brother did that.

I'm sure you don't actually want to speak to him ever again.

Anitarest · 25/09/2021 15:24

When pressed he didn’t think that people with a penis are women.
He’s right. That’s because they aren’t female. They can now call themselves what they like, but being born with a penis means you’re not female. This is the latest bandwagon -along with gender-fluid that people can ignore science and jump on and get worked up about.