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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Just had a row with a friend

79 replies

MordenLarch · 24/09/2021 22:12

Just saw one of my oldest friends -talk turned to the gender debate (drunkly). Quickly turned into a row. He was saying:

  • this is a niche issue - why don’t you use your anger against climate change?
  • give me facts and figures about how many women are abused in prisons/DV shelters etc - I’m sure it’s not many
-you’ve been told this is an issue by the right wing press etc
  • you’re old fashioned - lots of young people are behind this

Etc etc

Am I alone I’m thinking that people (especially on the left) just don’t get this?!

When pressed he didn’t think that people with a penis are women.

He didn’t seem to give a shit that women’s rights as a biological class of human are being systematically eroded.

What has happened to people?!

Sorry - am ranting!

OP posts:
Fallagain · 26/09/2021 10:04

@CharlieParley

In my experience men are generally clueless about the impact sexual and physical male violence has on women. At a dinner party last year, the dynamics required that all the men present listened to a young woman just out of her teens share her distress about the risk of male violence to her.

They were sympathetic but thought this was either her being overly worried or just in a particularly bad place where she lived. When they started to ever so gently say these things to her, three of the other women there started enlightening the men, including their husbands, about their own experiences. It was fascinating.

(I kept my mouth shut, because I know so much about this that I can easily hammer them with statistics, but as I'm campaigning on women's rights, men tend to just dismiss what I say as biased. And it was much better coming from women just talking about their lives.)

Very quickly, a pattern emerged, and these are bright, educated men, they recognised the pattern without issue. Their shock at the reality of harassment and violence women face at the hands of men was palpable.

That they were so utterly clueless though was eye-opening to me. These men all supported women's rights. Their behaviour was respectful. (I've spent enough time with sexist men who wouldn't have cared what the women thought.) And yet, no clue.

I cannot help thinking if the dynamics had allowed them to just dismiss the young woman outright, whether they would have bothered to listen to us. Luckily, best behaviour and all that meant they had no other choice and there's now half a dozen men out there who have an inkling of the issue.

But yeah, I now take it as a given that the average man does not know.

This is the crux of the issue for me. Women are still not been heard in our society. It’s not just men and the media who are not listening. It’s women who have also been conditioned not to listen to women.
Livpool · 26/09/2021 12:25

I am liberal and left-leaning but don't believe twaw. I also don't think it is women's role in society to 'protect' gender non-conforming men

NiceGerbil · 26/09/2021 21:24

I had a really drunken amiable disagreement with one of DH friends about this.

He's 6'5 and not in shape but massive build.

He was drunkenly insisting that it's fine. Kick him in the nuts and run off. I was saying erm that's usually not how it works. They can overpower you so easily. That managing that is unlikely.

Anyway I got him to stand up. I am short. I demonstrated that lifting my knee as far as was reasonable didn't even reach his nuts Grin

He was drunkenly not swayed from his position.

It was all good natured and he wasn't winding me up he is very earnest and we often get into all sorts of topics when drunk.

But I mean. He really really thought that.

Weird.

Maybe some feel uncomfortable facing up to how men, how they themselves. Have that power?

LobsterNapkin · 26/09/2021 22:08

@oldwomanwhoruns

LobsterNapkin's point above is so right - that the good people who only read the Guardian and the BBC are completely in the dark about the whole thing.

I have friends like this!! They think that I am a) going insane and b) making stuff up because they are not reading about it. And they trust their two favoured sources.

I've told them (of course) that neither will cover these news items, that they are both captured.

Now they KNOW that I am a deranged lunatic. They exchange knowing looks over my head...Angry

Yup.

I remember a twitter thread about some incident involving a transwoman, where one guy, a gay man apparently, kept asking for articles from a good source, like the Guardian.

He could not seem to get it through his head that there might be any other source besides a very few that were any good, or that the Guardian might have some kind of bias. His level of trust was incredibly high.

I've seen that pattern again and again with a certain type of progressive liberal, and their sex doesn't really matter. They just accept certain media, political, and institutional sources as being almost unquestionable, and they seem to have a very naive understanding of bias or how data can be manipulated.

I suspect for a lot of them, if you managed to pierce their armour where they realized, oh, this source is taking me for a ride, it would be a real existential shock for them. They'd have to rethink many of the things they hang their sense of what's real and right, even their sense of self, on.

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