Just had a row with a friend

[MordenLarch]

Just saw one of my oldest friends -talk turned to the gender debate (drunkly). Quickly turned into a row. He was saying:

• this is a niche issue - why don’t you use your anger against climate change?
• give me facts and figures about how many women are abused in prisons/DV shelters etc - I’m sure it’s not many

-you’ve been told this is an issue by the right wing press etc

• you’re old fashioned - lots of young people are behind this

Etc etc

Am I alone I’m thinking that people (especially on the left) just don’t get this?!

When pressed he didn’t think that people with a penis are women.

He didn’t seem to give a shit that women’s rights as a biological class of human are being systematically eroded.

What has happened to people?!

Sorry - am ranting!

Apparently he has 'a friend' who is a transwoman, who recently got beaten up in the men's loo, ergo had a right to use the women's loo.

So he understands that male people in toilets can be violent? Or had he not quite put 2 and 2 together?

Previous posters are right, he was goading you.

Next time he starts up go for the central facts that you are not a transphobe but are pro science: men have XY chromosomes so are physically advantaged by testosterone. I'd repeat this fact in debate...but TW are women...no they are XY male. But TW should be in women's sport/prison/wards...no they are XY male. Fact!

So he understands that male people in toilets can be violent? Or had he not quite put 2 and 2 together?

I don't know. I was too incensed at the time to snarkily remark that at least his 'friend' (I use quotations because we've never, ever heard of this person before) is getting the full Woman Experience, but I wish I had.

I don't suppose it would matter anyway, to be honest, because male violence to women is unimportant. It's only important when it's to transwomen. Or, as he charmingly put it, his friends. His sisters, their feelings and experiences, count for nothing.

Left-leaning men seem to care even less about women than conservative men.

Conservative men at least have a view on how women should be treated, and the decent ones would physically defend women if needed. Left leaning men, in my experience, simply won’t.

I think left or right, a lot of men aren't great on women's rights. The difference is with the right you know where you stand, men on the left gaslight pretending to care, while undermining women at every opportunity and screaming terf or bigot when women talk about their own experiences of male violence etc.

Owen jones is a really good example of that

This is why I don't talk to men about this issue unless I know that they already get it at least to some extent.

I am more likely to talk about this stuff with another woman in the presence of a man and not let him butt in. Thinking he might learn something. Or maybe just to wind him up.

I've had quite a few men get completely testerical about this issue and ended friendships over it. If they don't get it, it's because they're misogynists. Men who care about women (including their female friends) listen and think about it. Anyone not blinded by misogyny, homophobia, or narcissism can see immediately what the problem is.

Shodan I'm so sorry to read your experiences and what a complete arsehole your brother is. I would have nothing more to do with him in future if it were me- I've fallen out with my brother on several occasions on similar themes and we are very LC now, for various reasons.

I agree with comments about men on this thread. I did have a really heartening conversation with a male colleague the other day, who when I pointed out that our employer had the protected characteristic incorrect on a document (gender instead of sex) encouraged me to report. We had a discussion about EDI and he agreed completely that EDI should be about ensuring equality, not about overtly political and controversial headlines of the day, nor should the rights of one group who happen to like shouting the loudest be put above everyone else's, particularly women's. He told me he is married to a radical feminist and is well aware of everything that is happening. Oh and he talked about how he won't be forced to put his pronouns in his email signature and that it's all nonsense!

We work for an organisation that has the potential to become very woke, and I'm always scared to raise my head above the parapet, but this conversation the other day gave me a bit of hope and I wanted to share!

OP when you say about your friend When pressed he didn’t think that people with a penis are women. is this for "relationships purposes" as some other man on twitter said? I find that very self serving and "one rule for you and another for others"

they just see them as special and fragile members of the male sex and think women should coddle their feelings.

Yep. They're not "real men" because they don't perform masculinity correctly and so they must be women, because that's the only other sex that humans have.

And it's the job of the rest of that sex, the women, to welcome, move over and tend to their needs. We're there to serve men, in whatever capacity and in this instance, our serving is in the guise of admitting these men to womanhood.

The rank misogyny of it makes me sick. I despise lefty-boy so much.

@NiceGerbil

Ah bingo OP.

How depressing I called it.

He raised it.
He knew it was probably something you felt strongly about.
It was all for his own entertainment.

Sorry.

Like I say it's not uncommon.

Just don't discuss it with him again. If he raises it say we're out to have fun let's not get into that again. And don't be drawn in.

He may start by saying he's thought about your points. Or he's changing his mind. Etc.

Don't be drawn in!

His behaviour is typical male poking at woman to watch her get emotional. And feel superior. Enjoy your frustration. He wasn't treating you as an equal friend. It was a male dominance thing.

I would not see a friend in the same light after that. Stay friends prob. But in the knowledge he did that.

@NiceGerbil There was a nasty, incel type misogynist at one of my workplaces who used to delight in telling sick jokes (rape, sexism, abuse ect) in order to assert his dominance over the room and see how uncomfortable and painful it was for me. As much as it distressed me, I had a high degree of control over my anger or temper which seriously annoyed him.

My theory on this is that some men have a pretty unstable sense of self and are really threatened by gender non-conformity. They need to go around saying TWAW because that way it becomes something that can't happen to them. The reason I say that is because the current umbrella definition of trans in which 'anyone who identifies as a woman actually is one' means that now every man on the planet is just one sentence away from being a transwoman. This is terrifying and so they have to get on board with pushing the line that transwomen have this special innate magical womanly soul so that there is a clear separation from themselves. Therefore they support transactivism because they feel threatened by GC realism gaining traction since it means people acknowledging that TWAM.

I suspect that some of these men are also pretty homophobic for the same reasons, fearing that it could happen to them. But because they are beardy lefty liberals it is obviously unacceptable to be homophobic so they can't voice it. Instead they pour their energy into supporting something that appears to be progressive but is actually transphobic in the proper meaning of the word.

Just as an observation, the men I know who are GC couldn't care less if anyone happened to think they were feminine, or gay, because they are not at all threatened by it.

“you used to care much more about climate change, but now you’ve been sidetracked by this gender thing”

'Gender thing'. Twat.

A good response might next time would be 'I think it's fascinating that you think you have the right to criticise which causes are worthy of my attention'.

Wish I'd been there. I would have been tempted to yawn and start talking about a totally different topic.

Sorry, I meant 'I think it'sfascinatingthat you think you have the right to decide which causes are worthy of my attention'.

@malloo

My theory on this is that some men have a pretty unstable sense of self and are really threatened by gender non-conformity. They need to go around saying TWAW because that way it becomes something that can't happen to them. The reason I say that is because the current umbrella definition of trans in which 'anyone who identifies as a woman actually is one' means that now every man on the planet is just one sentence away from being a transwoman. This is terrifying and so they have to get on board with pushing the line that transwomen have this special innate magical womanly soul so that there is a clear separation from themselves. Therefore they support transactivism because they feel threatened by GC realism gaining traction since it means people acknowledging that TWAM.

I suspect that some of these men are also pretty homophobic for the same reasons, fearing that it could happen to them. But because they are beardy lefty liberals it is obviously unacceptable to be homophobic so they can't voice it. Instead they pour their energy into supporting something that appears to be progressive but is actually transphobic in the proper meaning of the word.

Just as an observation, the men I know who are GC couldn't care less if anyone happened to think they were feminine, or gay, because they are not at all threatened by it.

I think this is absolutely spot on. The homophobia of these types, whcih they feel a bit guilty about, is part of what's driving them (the sexism too, of course).

So much of it is that vague distaste for homosexuality, which they know is indefensible. If they're a bit older, they may even have been "out" homophobes and they know they were wrong. So they're determined not to be wrong about this, even if they don't believe a word of it. That's why "the wrong side of history" is so important to them.

My experience is that the left wing men I know who are very TWAW have often never had children and have continued to socialise, go out to bars, etc. Their experience of middle aged men becoming transwomen is very much going out clubbing with the transitioning husbands, who are absolutely fabulous, rather than standing at the school gates with their whingeing wives, who are very much not fabulous at all.

I was out last night with colleagues. One of them met a friend and stopped to talk at her table for a few minutes. When she came back to us she said the people her friend were with were discussing "this gender bollocks" and asked her opinion.

She was a bit reluctant to give it but given the way they'd described it as bollocks she said she was gender critical. Turns out the men with her friend were gay, and are furious about being told they have a genital preference and are transphobic for not dating trans men. They were very vocal about not accepting any of this.

That, coupled with a long walk today where I've seen a few GC stickers still up (having been there for weeks and weeks) has given me a bit of hope today.

@Shodan - I am so sorry for what you've been through and for the way your other brother is showing his true colours about it all now.

@SnoopyLights Thank you.

Part of my brother's intention, clearly, was to belittle my intelligence, because he has a PhD, and, as I mentioned upthread, I didn't finish my degree. He sought to squash me down, I believe.

I'm happy to say that it's had completely the opposite effect I'm now reading more around the subject than I was before. I may not yet have all the knowledge at my fingertips to be confident in battling men like this, but by God I'm getting there.

And having support like I received on this thread goes a long way to helping, so again, thank you all.

Unfortunately I had very similar recently with my own brother. Apparently he has 'a friend' who is a transwoman, who recently got beaten up in the men's loo, ergo had a right to use the women's loo.

Well if his transmate got beaten up by blokes in a male loo, then he'll have the same risk of being beaten up by blokes in the mixed-sex loos that he wants to bring in, won't he?

There's just no bloody logic to this.

Identify violent male offenders ffs, and put them through the criminal justice system. Don't allow them anywhere near vulnerable women. It used to be called policing.

@Nellodee

My experience is that the left wing men I know who are very TWAW have often never had children and have continued to socialise, go out to bars, etc. Their experience of middle aged men becoming transwomen is very much going out clubbing with the transitioning husbands, who are absolutely fabulous, rather than standing at the school gates with their whingeing wives, who are very much not fabulous at all.

I agree, but also in my experience, are often gay. So lifestyles very selfish - focused on work (nearly all high performers & high income), no DC, lots of socializing, little caring for elderly parents etc.

I think that when someone says this is niche they typically really have just not seen it much, the things that are happening, and they are not really very good at figuring out things like the legal or social implications of a change.

One of the things that political progressivism has tended to do is tell people that there are no downsides to making good changes. If you make "progress" it will be all good.

And then they look at something like climate change which they think as an existential threat and it seems much more pressing.

If they are reading things like the Guardian or BBC, they will probably be in the dark about the whole thing.

Apparently he has 'a friend' who is a transwoman, who recently got beaten up in the men's loo, ergo had a right to use the women's loo.

How many times have we seen the adjacent argument? That if a man wants to rape a woman he will anyway, so why bother with women only spaces? That if you see someone doing something they shouldn't in a ladies' loo just call the police? (I eventually fell out with my pal on twitter over this point.....)

And I have heard the argument that there are other more important things than this to worry about, what about climate change? My response is that everyone is allowed to debate climate change, and research it, and you don't get called a bigot or get the sack for bringing it up, and so lots of people have already started to raise awareness and campaign on environmental issues so I am sticking to this one....

LobsterNapkin's point above is so right - that the good people who only read the Guardian and the BBC are completely in the dark about the whole thing.

I have friends like this!! They think that I am a) going insane and b) making stuff up because they are not reading about it. And they trust their two favoured sources.

I've told them (of course) that neither will cover these news items, that they are both captured.

Now they KNOW that I am a deranged lunatic. They exchange knowing looks over my head...

I think that male privilege means that many men really have no idea how vulnerable women are to male violence
@Kittii exactly this, conversation with DP the other day about WiSpa:
DP ‘Well we’re (sex) separated for dignity and privacy
Me ‘Erm…. Actually it’s safeguarding’
So there you go, men are worried about women seeing their willies

Yes, my DH who is absolutely wonderful, feminist, GC etc. was really shocked to discover that I didn't feel safe going running on my own through a local wood that he runs through every day. He had just never had any cause to think that doing something like that would be dangerous for me as a woman. It's very eye-opening.

The comparison to climate change as a more pressing issue is interesting.
There's always something women are supposed to be focusing our energies on that's considered more important...

Frankly, it would be great if we could have focussed our energies on climate change, rather than having to defend ourselves from this new, harmful ideology the TRAs are trying to impose on us. And it is a defence, a reaction to their nonsense. I doubt any of us particularly wanted to - or even thought we'd have to - go back to the basics of describing what a woman actually is, before we can even get on to tackling sexism.

Ultimately, if trying to do something about half of humanity being (often violently) oppressed by the other half is not a pressing issue, then what kind of self-indulgent wankeriness is it to obsess over one's "gender identity" and to see it as a huge injustice when someone uses the established pronouns for your sex? What a sterling example of privileged, Western, navel-gazing bollocks.

And where it does actually link to genuine discrimination, not to mention risk of violence, they somehow fail to make this link and argue the opposite, in a very individualistic way refusing to see they are part of a wider group suffering due to sexism and who should be trying to fight it together. By this I mean that trans people are at risk in various ways due to breaking perceived gender norms. We should be on the same side here, dismantling these norms. But instead TRAs seek to reinforce them, opting for arguing over the definition of a woman/man rather than challenging the status quo over how these groups are treated.