Labour have committed to single sex spaces

[flumpetto]

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

Starmer is smart but and has been trying to hedge his bets on this issue and on Brexit because he knows both issues are fundamentally unwinnable and toxic within Labour.

With Brexit you have the traditional working class vote and the old school socialists who hate the EU vs. the more urban liberals who like the free movement and free trade. Both are a sizeable amount of Labour Party members and voters.

With gender, you have lots of people who are GC to varying degrees (some very stridently all the way to those who mostly want to #BeKind but draw the line at rapists in female jails) vs. the True Believers who count even the most milquetoast dissent as heresy and who are very loud on social media.

Neither of those opposing factions will ever reach an acceptable compromise. Starmer will lose regardless of what he does and his party will be split but he will need to bite the bullet sooner or later or we will have the Tories in power forever.

Hedging bets just prolongs the agony.

Why would the Tories say anything? They've already got maximum benefit out of it and now they just keep schtum and watch Labour, SNP and Lib Dems twist in the wind (i doubt they bother looking at the Greens much).

I don't trust Conservatives on non-Conservative women's rights, they always seem very tribal, but they do notice that there are substantial tranches of women who vote for them.

@OvaHere

On the party’s policy, he said: “Our position on this has not changed [from the 2019 manifesto].

“What we have said is that Labour would work to update the Gender Recognition Act to enable a process for gender identification.

“And we also continue to support the implementation of the Equality Act, including the single-sex exemption which allows the provision of women-only spaces.”

This just seems to be a rehash of the pre election 2019 situation where they commit to both self ID and single sex spaces. Which is a circle that cannot be squared. What they're also not saying is that their definition of the word woman still includes at least some men. So our version of single sex is unlikely to tally with Labour's.

I fear this is a nothingburger and just Party HQ trying to quash criticism over the treatment of Rosie Duffield whilst not committing to anything that makes real sense.

As ever I hope to be wrong. We'll see.

I think you're right.

(Totally off-topic but @prh47bridge I always associated you with the name Phoebe for some reason - username brings to mind phoebe bridgers or something - so bit of a shock to learn you're a man! Not that it's relevant!)

@QueenPeary

Going on how cross John McDonnell was on R4 Today this morning about the electoral college proposal (proper bosom hoisting huffing)

Yes I loved it :o You could hear him thinking "oh FFS get over yourselves"

Is there a thread on this, I've been at work and missed it.

Ah — and they've already rolled back on it and taken the default that TWs should be allowed everywhere except for a few extraordinary exceptions. This just proves you can't trust a word they say. I won't be putting an ounce of faith in the next Labour manifesto. They'll just pull out a page of T & Cs and small print to discount any commitment they make to women.

We really need to press hard on the men-in-women's prisons button. I think the sport situation is almost won and not locking a woman up in a cell with a person with a p enis is a no-brainer, too. I wish some famous woman would just dare to get out there in a slogan t-shirt. No one in their right minds thinks that that bepenised people in women's prisons is a good idea. It would be another quick win.

Note to everyone. Mhairi Hunter, SNP politician , was tweeting today in response.

My tip to any politician asked if "woman" means adult human female is to say yes. And if you're asked if trans women are adult human females the answer is also yes.

twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1440562861089046529?s=19

So bear that in mind when asking your MP anything.

I'm not rejoining yet Keir.

I suspect this is on a par with Nicola Sturgeon’s comments about going full steam ahead with self-ID while also not removing women’s existing rights. But who are women Nicola?

For those not signed up with the Indy, here's a workaround:

bit.ly/3lQbWEl

Labour in opposition promise a vague solution to a “problem” because it’s populist - stop the press!!

I fully expect that individual organisations will be able to make their own minds up about “exclusions”. The fact most large institutions have been Stonewalled and believe TWAW, we will be left with very few single sex spaces, which we will have to fight for.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Note to everyone. Mhairi Hunter, SNP politician , was tweeting today in response.

My tip to any politician asked if "woman" means adult human female is to say yes. And if you're asked if trans women are adult human females the answer is also yes.

twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1440562861089046529?s=19

So bear that in mind when asking your MP anything.

She's so dim.

What does she think 'female' means exactly?

@Tibtom

But but but... You can change your sex through self ID.

exactly.

Unless they allow self ID but dont allow 'sex' change - ie give protection against discrimination and allow 'gender' change, but dont allow 'sex' change

This is why the GRA is an absolute mess

Or they shore up the exclusions so that they become blanket exclusions rather than individual case by case exclusions, and ensure no harrassment / loss of funding etc is allowed to happen.

It would really highlight what its about of they campaigned for trans specific services. Other minority groups have specific services which are focussed on the specific needs of their demographic. The TRAs wouldnt want it, but it would certainly highlight how its about validation and not need.

So trans refuges. Trans wings in the mens prison. trans shortlists.

He will win back more support for Labour than they will lose by doing this so it is a smart move, but for me the true colours have been shown. I voted Tory due to his issue as well as other considerations. I can’t see myself voting green, Lib Dem or Labour again as none recognise me and my daughters as a separate sex class, so that for me was a non starter, in terms of political representation in any meaningful way.

I fail to see why people keep stating that Starmer is “smart” or “clever”. I haven’t seen any actual evidence of that at all. Ever.

I am sure he was a good legal person. As a Labour leader…yet to resonate at all.

@Muminabun

He will win back more support for Labour than they will lose by doing this so it is a smart move, but for me the true colours have been shown. I voted Tory due to his issue as well as other considerations. I can’t see myself voting green, Lib Dem or Labour again as none recognise me and my daughters as a separate sex class, so that for me was a non starter, in terms of political representation in any meaningful way.

I agree with everything said here.

This is nothing different than the manifesto stated, they had committed to single sex spaces in that.

We need to sure up the EA2010, make those single sex provisions clear then educate the organisations and services that this applies to.

@Doomscrolling - I can't see where its been changed?? Was that a labour spokeprostatehaver making another statement?????

Does KS read mumsnet?!

Jean Hatchet said on Twitter some time ago, that she thinks it is on a case by case system, that Starmer wants. She is not impressed!

Keir Starmer did a really interesting Desert Island Discs where he has huge respect for his mother. Who had a very difficult time. He came across really well. He’s not had an easy upbringing either.

I wonder whether he could be braver though, really stick his neck out on the side of the rational, actually speak up for women, for the disabled and those on lower incomes (that has been lost to conservatives and vote leave lot).

The GRA needs scapping altogether, because it no longer serves the tiny number of seriously dysphoric transexuals for whom it was designed, who wanted it for going incognito and allowing them to marry in a time when gay marriage was illegal. But this is very unlikely to happen.

Nowdays just about every transperson is out and proud, and corporate endorsement / biography pronouns are the norm - the number under the 'gender umbrella' is huge.

So allow people a GRC. Which states their Gender. And ensures they cannot be discriminated against because of it. Its a protected characteristic in the equality act.

But, as the TRAs and the woo-science tell us, sex and gender are totally different things, remove the ability to create a 'legal fiction' by changing a document that records biological sex. And uphold the single sex exemptions.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Note to everyone. Mhairi Hunter, SNP politician , was tweeting today in response.

My tip to any politician asked if "woman" means adult human female is to say yes. And if you're asked if trans women are adult human females the answer is also yes.

twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1440562861089046529?s=19

So bear that in mind when asking your MP anything.

That's someone who needs to go back to school.

Now, more than ever, we need more scientists in politics to counteract this sort of nonsense.

Personally, I would favour altering the GRA so that you can get documents with your new gender identity far more easily, but where that gender identity is treated differently from your immutable biological and legal sex.
Hmm….I think I see where you’re coming from on that (go ahead and get a certificate that officially recognises whatever gender you want, makes no difference to anyone else as it’s not affecting your legal sex). But how would that work really? The genderists believe that the sex markers on official documents are gender markers and want them to document their self-identified gender. They are not going to accept removing their current ability to legally change those documents - you can already change your passport and driving licence by effectively self-ID, it is only the birth certificate that requires the person to go through the GRC process. You can already easily change most documents. The genie is already out of the bottle.

@Mrsorganmorgan

Jean Hatchet said on Twitter some time ago, that she thinks it is on a case by case system, that Starmer wants. She is not impressed!

I'd only take 'case by case' if, say, Case #1 was 'refuges', and Case #2 was 'prisons', and Case #3 was 'women-only wards in hospital', and Case #4 was 'rights of just female adults to have female medical practitioners for gynae procedures'.

Not on a transgender person person basis. Who the fuck is going to adjudicate that in a timely manner for me, my grandma, the 18 years olds in HMP Bronzefield? And anyway, safeguarding doesn't work like that. It's a statistical analysis of risk; it's not about individuals feeling offended.