Labour have committed to single sex spaces

[flumpetto]

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

@Feedingthebirds1

I see David Lammy now thinks we are " dinosaurs hoarding rights"

Rights which we have had for only two or three generations, but which men have held for millenia in fact. And while it may have started long after the dinosaurs became extinct, it's still a damn sight longer than women.

And that's only relevant (largely) to westernised societies. There are still many places on the planet where women have no, or few, rights but must always be subservient to the men.

I know who's the dinosaur here, and it isn't me.

It's fabulous isn't it, men giving away women's rights in favour of other men, just fabulous. Rights they never wanted women to have in the first place and fought tooth and nail against.

Men demanding access to the spaces and services set up for the exclusive use of females because they've decided they should use them based on criteria they decided on without reference to women and then berating and abusing women when they say 'No'. Spaces and services they never wanted women to have anyway and fought tooth and nail to stop, services that women had to set up and fund by themselves.

What a time to be a woman or girl, an adult or juvenile human female.

And someone on here blithely talks over women and at women about their oppression.

Great. Fabulous. Marvellous.

Your respectful tone is appreciated!

Oh for goodness sake. I'm really tired of this whole tea with the Headmaster tone, it's beyond patronising.

I'm curious. Do you believe women are assigned a set of stereotyped behavioural expectations -a female gender role- at birth by the patriarchy which they are then expected to observe throughout their lives on pain of abuse and often death, and which inform the experiences and opportunities they are allowed to partake in?

I honestly do not care.

I want women treated with equal respect, listened to and their needs met in the way that currently most parliamentarians are running around like headless chickens to do for people born male. In the meantime, women and girls are being called 'bodies with vaginas' as if they're just meat with a male access point, vulnerable women cannot access necessary basic public services and resources, and we've got a government full of people running the country who fall apart and babble like panicked idiots if anyone says the word 'cervix'.

I don't have time for casual pontificating right now, I really don't. Women have very serious and immediate problems to deal with.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I'm curious. No, that's me!

@Helleofabore

I understand and acknowledge why that post was deleted; I'm sad as it contained some pretty earnest meditations on experienced oppressions and privileges, but there we go.

Along with the implication that we are 'transphobes' .....

Not going to get drawn into this one; the MNHQ team have very politely but firmly made clear their stance on the usage of this particular term in this discussion space. I'd actually quite like to discuss your opinions on it in a neutral environment but I don't see a way to do so here.

Do you believe women are assigned a set of stereotyped behavioural expectations -a female gender role- at birth by the patriarchy which they are then expected to observe throughout their lives on pain of abuse and often death, and which inform the experiences and opportunities they are allowed to partake in?

Let me think, bears and woods, Popes and religion.

PLEASE don't tell me that the thought of that surprises you! Your lens is far more different than I thought!

From being corrected when running fast, shouting, sitting slumped, choosing a car instead of a dolly; being passed over at work, maybe not getting a job because, you know, getting pregnant, to being poked, prodded, felt up, called a slut, raped.

What the fuck do you THINK women mean when they talk about sex based oppression?

What exactly does he mean by this comment? It’s open to interpretation (as usual). There is no way I’d risk voting Labour. I’d want more then an incredibly vague statement made to appease women. I don’t trust Labour and I don’t trust keir.

I'm sad as it contained some pretty earnest meditations on experienced oppressions and privileges, but there we go.

In your place, I would be confused at my behaviour. Confused that I had used a word again when I had already been told it was disproportionately used to denigrate women, to the women who had told me so.

I told you at 15:55 yesterday with a link to an article about everyday misogyny, that it was a word used to denigrate women. So the boundary was very clearly set.

Yet you used it again. That was foolish, wasn't it? Telling a bunch of women that you don't see a word as having misogynistic connotations isn't your wisest decision either.

@334bu

I see David Lammy now thinks we are " dinosaurs hoarding rights" As a man he has a bloody cheek telling women what we should with " our rights" Which ones should we give up,I wonder.; the right not to be put in danger by allowing people of the male sex into our prison cells, perhaps.

I would like to identify as a stegosaurus, please, David.

I'd actually quite like to discuss your opinions on it in a neutral environment but I don't see a way to do so here.

If you got rid of the sneering and admonishing undercurrents that have underlined your posts from the beginning, this would be a neutral environment. We do have some lively but open discussions here with people, and frankly, posters on this board have very different opinions to each other and different boundaries.

Do you believe women are assigned a set of stereotyped behavioural expectations -a female gender role- at birth by the patriarchy which they are then expected to observe throughout their lives on pain of abuse and often death, and which inform the experiences and opportunities they are allowed to partake in?

Women and men are subject to expectations of gender stereotypes based on their sex, but some people in all societies and eras have resisted them. The whole point of feminism is to resist the gender stereotype imposed on women, and that is why through feminism things have changed so much for females over time, in most parts of the world though to varying degrees - in terms of education, careers, finances, laws and so on.

Gender stereotypes are not "assigned at birth" automatically - it depends who and where you are, who your parents are etc. My kids are male and female, but I've always made sure that while that matters in certain specific ways, it doesn't affect what they can do with their lives.

Part of genderist ideology involves massively overstating the enforcement of gender and saying that gender is a "binary" and assigned at birth, when it's just not. Sex is observed at birth, but to what extent you have gender imposed on you varies a great deal - and even if it is imposed, you can resist it without that meaning your sex isn't "right". You can be as feminine as you like and still be male and there is nothing wrong with that. Thinking that being feminine (gender) means you are a woman (sex) is just reinforcing gender stereotyping. It's just saying women do this stuff, men do that stuff, and that's how it should be so I have to "change sex".

I'd actually quite like to discuss your opinions on it in a neutral environment but I don't see a way to do so here.

There are very many things women would dearly love to be permitted to discuss, but they are not.

This infamous space is regulated very strictly indeed and is STILL the only place women are allowed to talk at all. Even with both hands tied behind their backs and their vocabularies severely limited for the benefit of others, and to their own disadvantage.

#nothankyou

@SaltySheepdog

What exactly does he mean by this comment? It’s open to interpretation (as usual). There is no way I’d risk voting Labour. I’d want more then an incredibly vague statement made to appease women. I don’t trust Labour and I don’t trust keir.

He means that Labour thinks women should sit down and shut up.

No, thank you.

I'd actually quite like to discuss your opinions on it in a neutral environment but I don't see a way to do so here.

In this era of doxxing?

#nothankyou

Well according to David Lammy all our " hoarded rights" must be ant trans. I wonder if the right not to suffer female genital mutilation in the UK is one he thinks we should give up? Or how about the right in the UK not to be married off at the onset of puberty and as a consequence of the strain of pregnancy on an immature body leak faeces for the rest of our lives? Or how about the right for equal pay ? Which of these rights does he think we should give up?!

Men, however they identify and whatever choices they have made in regard to their body and presentation in women's spaces and services that are designed for the female sex to cater to their safety, privacy, dignity and comfort - NO. NO. NO.

I DO NOT CONSENT. I WILL NOT CONSENT.

I would like to be a Australotitan cooperensis thanks David.

Also #nothankyou

Men demanding access to the spaces and services set up for the exclusive use of females because they've decided they should use them based on criteria they decided on without reference to women and then berating and abusing women when they say 'No'. Spaces and services they never wanted women to have anyway and fought tooth and nail to stop, services that women had to set up and fund by themselves

Quite.

#nothankyou

I DO NOT CONSENT. I WILL NOT CONSENT

Women say NO!

When David hands over a few of his rights that really hurt, we'll talk about which of mine I might give ground on.

#nothankyou

To any of it.

Labour will continue to shed women until they get to grips with this.

No thank you, Keir, and David, and Angela. No thank you.

Strident Pterodactylosaurus, here.

No, thank you, Labour.

Labour will continue to shed women until they get to grips with this.

Indeed. So for yet another year

No thank you!

I want women treated with equal respect, listened to and their needs met in the way that currently most parliamentarians are running around like headless chickens to do for people born male. In the meantime, women and girls are being called 'bodies with vaginas' as if they're just meat with a male access point, vulnerable women cannot access necessary basic public services and resources, and we've got a government full of people running the country who fall apart and babble like panicked idiots if anyone says the word 'cervix'.

This isn't much to ask, is it?

The truly oppressed people are those from whom a simple "no, thank you" is ignored.

Women.

#istandwithrosie