Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour have committed to single sex spaces

999 replies

flumpetto · 22/09/2021 14:00

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
RedDogsBeg · 22/09/2021 15:40

I can't wait to see what the usual Labour misogynistic loudmouths say because they'll either have to let the cat out the bag and admit this means nothing has changed. Or they'll be frothing.

I think we'll be treated to both.

AlfonsoTheMango · 22/09/2021 15:41

@LemonSwan

This really is not a difficult circle to square.

It takes a bit of compassion, a bit of tact, and some common sense.

If they cant figure this out then every single one of them is a waste of space. The answer is 3 spaces - Male, Female and Unisex. And if somewhere small cant accomodate that then they should all be individual unisex provision like in Starbucks.

Not difficult!

Except that it doesn't work that way in practice. TRAs won't use unisex spaces so we are back to where we started.
PermanentTemporary · 22/09/2021 15:42

It sounds like the only possible compromise - essentially the legal minimum plus acknowledging that in a few occasional undefined situations, there is a group of women that differ from males who have transitioned.

That's a long way from what I want or believe but the point for a political party is to find a compromise that can be accepted by extremists. Since it seems that I'm an extremist in this debate for believing that trans men (men who transition) are not women, I have to accept that if I want to vote left of centre, this is a step in the right direction.

RedDogsBeg · 22/09/2021 15:43

Except that it doesn't work that way in practice. TRAs won't use unisex spaces so we are back to where we started.

Which is why it needs cold, hard, no wriggle room legislation.

andyoldlabour · 22/09/2021 15:43

Starmer must realise that the Labour party has alienated women (and men) voters over this subject, so could this be his Nick Clegg "tuition fee" moment, where he says something to get people on line to garner votes and then backpeddles if and when he gets into power?

TupilaLilium · 22/09/2021 15:46

I hope it sticks.

These Tories are AWFUL, but I'll take their brand of awful anyday over identity-politic awful. I was imagining if there were an election today I would not be able to vote.

InvisibleDragon · 22/09/2021 15:46

I'm cautiously hopeful.

To me, "certain situations" and "where justified" sounds like literally re-stating the existing equality act: the certain situations are justified when they are a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim.

So Labour is hopefully committing to at least not changing the law as it stands. What they do with their commitment to self-ID remains to be seen.

Personally, I would favour altering the GRA so that you can get documents with your new gender identity far more easily, but where that gender identity is treated differently from your immutable biological and legal sex.

CreepingDeath · 22/09/2021 15:51

[quote timeisnotaline]@tibtom I’m not getting into whether women noticed or not, but there have been for years transwomen minding their own business. Who’ve had surgery and or change in cubicles, who don’t full frontal wave penises around or pay inappropriate attention to women in womens spaces. No one is arguing that and it is a shame they are caught in this mess of predatory men seeking to cancel all women’s rights. I won’t throw women under a bus to suit this group but that doesn’t mean I don’t have sympathy.[/quote]
I did have sympathy, but it's honestly starting to wane. Why are they not speaking out about this if they are also unhappy with how far the TRAs have pushed this? Why is it up to women to keep policing this. Keeping your head down and getting on with it isn't good enough anymore.

If there were groups demanding all this shit in my name and I disagreed I would be ranting and raving about it. But they don't seem to be doing that.

And yes, maybe some small number 'got away with it', but countless other times women and girls would have been too polite/ too uncomfortable/ too intimidated to say anything. That doesn't make it ok. That shouldn't be counted as a win for trans people (although they may have felt that they passed so it was ok).

They never asked others if they were ok with it. The fact remains they shouldn't be breaching this space in the first instance. They don't belong there.

highame · 22/09/2021 15:52

Every time Keir Starmer makes a proclamation, I think of his appalling Brexit fudge. I imagine this is the start of a women's rights fudge. If you bear that in mind, we'll have a long wait for any clarity.

Embarrassing - I want those questions answered and in triplicate

Anything is going to be a fudge, these were laws hi-jacked to fulfil an under the radar SW mission. Nevertheless, I will hope Labour come to their senses

Congressdingo · 22/09/2021 15:53

@averylongtimeago

It's only "some" spaces "when justified". They haven't won my vote back yet.
This, indeed. Who will be the arbiter of which spaces and when? From 3am til 8am anyone can use any woman only space, any other time only women, the cunty type.
timeisnotaline · 22/09/2021 15:54

@CreepingDeath some certainly are, but it’s a double edged sword for them. The vocal ones I’ve seen on Twitter do also get told to get back in their box and you don’t get to speak for women by the more vocal gc women as well as the tra pile on. If that’s a common reaction I do understand keeping quiet!

zen1 · 22/09/2021 15:54

I’m sure it won’t be long before he is forced to ‘clarify’ what he really means (in favour of TRAs).

JustbackfromBangkok · 22/09/2021 15:54

He is so spineless I would only, possibly, trust him a little bit if he immediately sacked all the usual suspects and promoted some sensible women.

Xenia · 22/09/2021 15:56

Duffield is right - Starmer needs to be clear that domestic violence refuges for women should exclude people with a p enis etc. (and the current Act DOES allow that). Starmer is sitting on the fence far too much on these issues.

ShrillSiren · 22/09/2021 15:57

If he starts from the position that TWAW, his statement means absolutely nothing.

MLMbotsno · 22/09/2021 15:57

Good.

OvaHere · 22/09/2021 16:02

The article appears to have been updated. After the quote I posted up thread this has been added.

The law “rightly assumes the inclusion of trans women, except in specific circumstances”, the spokesman said, normally thought to include prisons and refuges.

Well we don't even have prisons and refuges currently so what does Starmer plan to do about that?

Nothing I assume, he is reiterating the law whilst knowing the law is not being upheld even a tiny bit.

Artichokeleaves · 22/09/2021 16:02

That didn't last long.

bellinisurge · 22/09/2021 16:03

He may think he has just reinforced his fence but the era of No Debate is over. Journalists are going ask questions. It's going to get coverage. Sunlight is going to start pouring in.
Starmer can either lead on it or get washed away.

JustbackfromBangkok · 22/09/2021 16:03

@Artichokeleaves

That didn't last long.
No surprise there.
Pudmyboy · 22/09/2021 16:04

It sounds like a step in the right direction but he seems so spineless I fear he will backtrack or water things down so much as to be meaningless. As others have said, why no support for Rosie Duffield?

TheABC · 22/09/2021 16:04

@happydappy2

I wish Boris would state where he stands on this, current MOJ policy has women prisoners held in mixed sex prisons-only Boris can change that.
Agreed. This is one where writing to Liz Truss may help.

Having said that, the Tories have managed to swerve this particular culture war and I don't expect the Johnson is keen to drag them into it, for no electoral gain.

EwwSprouts · 22/09/2021 16:05

I need details.
I shouldn't, but I need:
– a definition of woman that endures and is not the subject of lobbying to change the meaning even in dictionaries and mainstream media;
– an understanding as to who is making the decisions concerning 'some spaces' and 'when justified';
– an unequivocal commitment to single-sex that isn't open to being end-run with 100+ other genders.

^^100% agree with @EmbarrassingAdmissions
It's maybe, possibly, wishy washy.

1Endeavour2 · 22/09/2021 16:07

Re trauma passports, yes, just that. Youth hostels routinely put transwomen into female spaces. Any exemptions for traumatised women have to be individually negotiated.
And no, Starmer doesn't get it. I don't trust him. At all.

Doomscrolling · 22/09/2021 16:07

Well that lasted all of about 90 minutes before being amended to include transwomen. FFS.

Swipe left for the next trending thread