Labour have committed to single sex spaces

[flumpetto]

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

That's a turn-up for the books. I'll be watching with interest and a certain degree of scepticism.

But hope springs eternal and all that.

It's a very sceptical and cautious "hooray!" from me. We will see. I am very cautiously hopeful.

The fucking state of The Independent, though - that headline about transwomen being "excluded". Where is the Independent when women are excluded, eh? And - unlike transwomen, who can use the gents - women have nowhere else to go when womens facilities are make mixed-sex.

It’s the Indy though (just one step away from the P* news).

@PermanentTemporary

I'll say that even here, on this thread, we end up using the 'excluding trans' wording, which is unpleasant and untrue. Single sex spaces if used where relevant don't exclude anyone, given that everyone has a sex. They prevent exclusion of those who need single sex provision. There may increasingly be more sex neutral or third spaces in the future as we work out when that operates best for everyone, and that's a good thing.

Quite.

The first priority of a female space is to be inclusive to ALL females.

If you have to exclude female people from female spaces to let male people in then what you're doing is not equality or inclusion.

He obviously doesn't know how the other side react to anything other than TWAW

Perhap he should try speaking to Rosie Duffield.

Half the comments are totally disgusted by this and quite focussed on the transwomen who have been passing for decades without any notice or causing harm. (This is a category I’m very sorry for stuck in the middle of this toxicity.)

However, the Labour Party and Kier have stated they want to reform the GRA in favour of self-id, how's he going to square that with his desire for the provision of single sex spaces and services for women that are absolute in their single sex status?

Because that is what we need a commitment and legislation that allows for single sex spaces and services to be just that and to be absolute and resolute that they remain single sex, no more legitimate aim fudging and faffing.

Sorry no, until they commit fully to biological women only then I don’t believe him.
It would be too easy for them to say TWAW and then we are back to the same old argument. If they bring in self-ID then every Tom, Dick & Harry will be allowed in female only spaces.
I don’t trust him or the Labour Party with women’s rights, just look at how they treat their own female MPs.

@timeisnotaline

Half the comments are totally disgusted by this and quite focussed on the transwomen who have been passing for decades without any notice or causing harm. (This is a category I’m very sorry for stuck in the middle of this toxicity.)

Ah, someone else mistaking women being too scared to challenge men as men passing without notice...

It's a very sceptical and cautious "hooray!" from me. We will see. I am very cautiously hopeful.

It speaks to the desperation of some of us for a political home and one that is in line with our perspectives before the mainstream parties made it their mission to adopt the road to authoritarianism.

@tibtom I’m not getting into whether women noticed or not, but there have been for years transwomen minding their own business. Who’ve had surgery and or change in cubicles, who don’t full frontal wave penises around or pay inappropriate attention to women in womens spaces. No one is arguing that and it is a shame they are caught in this mess of predatory men seeking to cancel all women’s rights. I won’t throw women under a bus to suit this group but that doesn’t mean I don’t have sympathy.

Didn't Angela Rayner say the exact opposite thing just 3 days ago on Twitter? She said Labout were fully commited to implementing self -id. I want to believe Starmer will stand behind this statement in the Indy but as others have said I'm very sceptical, can't see him standing up to the more vocal 'TWAW' members of his party.

I wish Boris would state where he stands on this, current MOJ policy has women prisoners held in mixed sex prisons-only Boris can change that.

Wow this is fantastic. Total opposite of what Angela Rayner said the other day. Must be some ructions going on internally

Interesting.

I left the Liberal Democrats this week/cancelled my membership.

I explained why (Ed Davey's comments about not protecting women's only spaces).

I received email back focused on trans rights/trans struggles saying
"The struggles of trans & non-binary women are not unrelated to cis-women’s struggles"

CIS?!

The Liberal Democrats really don't get it.

I wonder if Labour do?

@HermioneKipper

Wow this is fantastic. Total opposite of what Angela Rayner said the other day. Must be some ructions going on internally

God, imagine if her, Nandy and the rest of the genderwoo crowd quit...

[quote timeisnotaline]@tibtom I’m not getting into whether women noticed or not, but there have been for years transwomen minding their own business. Who’ve had surgery and or change in cubicles, who don’t full frontal wave penises around or pay inappropriate attention to women in womens spaces. No one is arguing that and it is a shame they are caught in this mess of predatory men seeking to cancel all women’s rights. I won’t throw women under a bus to suit this group but that doesn’t mean I don’t have sympathy.[/quote]
There are people who are going to lose the access they had been quietly used to. It doesn't make it right for women, but yes, I can sympathise too.

It is other male people who pushed that access until it broke, ensured that no gatekeeping or limiting was possible, and there was no will to respect, care for and centre the needs of female people in female spaces and for female inclusion. There isn't a way back from that: male people have proven, this can't and doesn't work for females.

Hopefully the next stage will be better third space solutions so we have answers that work for everyone.

Nice to see a lawyer support what the actual law says. Obviously I enjoy watching the tiddlers wet themselves over that.
Let's hope, if nothing else, this is the end of No Debate. Where no reasonable person is allowed an attack of the vapours because someone disagrees with them.

@timeisnotaline

Half the comments are totally disgusted by this and quite focussed on the transwomen who have been passing for decades without any notice or causing harm. (This is a category I’m very sorry for stuck in the middle of this toxicity.)

TW have not been passing unnoticed for decades in women's spaces and services, they've taken a reluctance to challenge them, whether out of fear, discomfort or embarrassment as acceptance and it is not and never was.

Women were never asked whether they were comfortable with having TW in their spaces and service, consent was presumed by the men who decided it, as ever men informing women what is expected of them.

Not enough in that to convince me, I'm afraid.

Hopefully this means I won’t have to spoil my paper again at the next general election. I think the exposure Rosie Duffield has had in the last few days has helped.

On the party’s policy, he said: “Our position on this has not changed [from the 2019 manifesto].

“What we have said is that Labour would work to update the Gender Recognition Act to enable a process for gender identification.

“And we also continue to support the implementation of the Equality Act, including the single-sex exemption which allows the provision of women-only spaces.”

This just seems to be a rehash of the pre election 2019 situation where they commit to both self ID and single sex spaces. Which is a circle that cannot be squared. What they're also not saying is that their definition of the word woman still includes at least some men. So our version of single sex is unlikely to tally with Labour's.

I fear this is a nothingburger and just Party HQ trying to quash criticism over the treatment of Rosie Duffield whilst not committing to anything that makes real sense.

As ever I hope to be wrong. We'll see.

Good. I am cautiously optimistic.

imagine if her, Nandy…quit...

I would adore it if a number of #BeKind and 'emotion trumps rationality in the arena of public policy-making 'people formed their own party to run on the manifesto outlined by Shon Faye.

Owen Jones would promote them in the Guardian and on YouTube (where I gather he's well known).

Jolyon Maugham would, doubtless, also support them and assume a senior position.

Layla Moran might read souls and advise them on spiritual matters as well as healthcare (she'd save the NHS a fortune with her in-built capacity for scanning).

I want to know the make-up of this fantasy political party. Suggestions for Officers and Members, please.

[quote Fariha31]I found this article facinating on social panics and their causes and ends -
unherd.com/2021/09/swedens-cultural-revolution/[/quote]
Yes, fascinating, as is the fear of being able to name the main players in the social drama - 'older [adult] men', ie not children, not women, but men. But whatever the social panic, we are all expected to look away from the agency of the male actors and #BeKind, without any analysis or critique permitted as the act of asking a question is itself deemed SomethingPhobic.