Rosie Duffield front page of Sunday Times

[Cismyfatarse]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/speaker-steps-in-over-online-threats-to-female-labour-mp-jnhbrcgv5?shareToken=230ac061798cd2f7a698da9afbc6fbe4

This should allow people to read it. Front page, no less. Starter texting to see if she is OK is not good enough but he doesn't seem to be pulled up on that.

Anaily,

You are still showing that you -

• Don't understand what the term gender critical means
• Seem to think that people saying 'sex is immutable' is a value judgement, it's not. Its simply biological fact. You cannot force people to believe falsehoods because that happens to be your belief.
• are following the party line that GC means that women who are fighting against the erosion of single sex spaces are anti - trans. They're not. They're pro - woman. By your own reasoning, you yourself are anti woman.

Gc believe trans people can't change sex. I personally don't care, I'll still respect trans people's identity even so, it's the decent thing to do. Your personal beliefs doesn't give you freedom to mistreat others, for example homophobic beliefs don't give freedom to mistreat gay people.
That's the same logic as edl - they aren't anti immigration, they are pro British, or kkk isn't racist, they are pro white. When you come off as fighting a minority group, you come off as anti-(that group). Trans have been included in all spaces for a long time, kicking them out is viewed as anti trans. If your approach was creating spaces for gc people only, then I'd see that as pro gc, as that doesn't go against anyone, it's advocating for gc spaces which isn't anti anything. If that makes sense of my pov.

Who are the TRA? Do they have names or places?

As always, you seem to have very little knowledge of the Equality Act 2010, I particular the range of single sex exemptions allowed by law and seem to forget (again) that there are 9 protected characteristics under the Equality Act, one of which is sex. Despite Stonewall's persistent campaigning, sex remains a protected characteristic. Self ID in particular destroys the protections of single sex spaces because they are no longer single sex spaces - they are then mixed sex spaces.

We do not 'believe that trans people can't change sex'. We know they can't because sex is immutable - again, your belief does not become reality through sheer repetition. Trans people are welcome to their own identity, rights, safety, etc but they cannot take women's identity, rights and safety.

What I find disgusting about the Rosie Duffield situation is yet again a woman has discussed receiving threats and the usual high profilr men have taken that as an invitation to direct even more abuse at her.
I bet they were all posting in support of Me Too and yet when in reality when a woman is targeted they cannot wait to double down on the bullying and abuse. It's absolutely sickening.
And I hope when the tide turns and they try to pretend they were supportive of women that they are rightly held to account for being the bullying misogynists that they are.

It’s a real problem that if a woman is expressing a view, about feeling attacked as a woman by men, whether they are trans or not…

And is then threatened to a scale where she is advised that attending a conference as an elected speaker is a security risk.

THAT is the problem here. Not what she said or didn’t say.

Gc believe trans people can't change sex.
True, in the same way I believe that I can't sail off the end of the flat world.
Or that our planet doesn't circle round the earth.

It is a belief in basic observable science.

Obviously men can choose to live their life as women, with the typical trappings associated with the opposite sex and vice versa.
No can actually change sex however.
All that is possible is adopting a different gender.

Gc believe trans people can't change sex. I personally don't care, I'll still respect trans people's identity even so, it's the decent thing to do.

Knowing that people can’t change biological sex and respecting transpeople’s rights are not mutually exclusive. TRAs have framed it that way to squash debate. Don’t be fooled by that.

Are you religious? Do you only respect people who have the same religion and beliefs as you? It’s a bizarre world if you have to believe in a person’s God yourself in order to believe that that person is worthy of respect.

And equating GC with homophobia? Ironic considering the circumstances. A gay man being hounded out of pride by TRAs? Lesbian women being told that to not want to have PIV is transphobic?

Your motivation seems to be about being nice. And that’s fine. I’m with you. But don’t lie. You don’t believe that a person can change from XY to XX anymore than we do. That doesn’t mean you can’t be nice to transpeople. They deserve acceptance and freedom yes, lies no.

I see anaily is still repeating trope from the activist play book.

The complete disconnect that calling women transphobic for claiming that they have needs to be addressed too and that making law changes to accommodate males who transition causes conflicts to the rights for women, yet believing that if some woman and girls are negatively affected by that conflict, that is acceptable, it is in no way anti-female is clear. The disconnect is there but you cannot acknowledge it.

I mean even yesterday we also had a vocal activist state in Scotland that a spike in murders of homosexual people was an ‘acceptable price’ to pay for trans people achieving their aims? Do you honestly agree with Sophie-Grace Chappell?

Do you understand that currently the activists you are supporting are stating there are acceptable levels of increased harm to others, particularly women and children, to achieve their aims? How is that not ‘anti-woman’ and ‘anti-children’?

@Lessthanaballpark

The comments are very encouraging and I feel that one silver lining of this whole debate is that it has united men and women in so many ways. Hell! Even Douglas Murray is showing feminist tendencies!

I thought this comment was particularly good:

Also, just as an observation, when women express concerns that they may feel unsafe if male bodied people use their private spaces, issuing rape threats on social media is unlikely to reassure.

I mean what are those TRAs thinking when they send abuse?! That we’re going to think “oh please come into our spaces! You pose no threat whatsoever!”

They don’t care.

They get to be misogynistic, and not only do they not get reprimanded for it, they get support.

Gc believe trans people can't change sex.

Do you believe they can, @anaily? How does this happen?

I'll still respect trans people's identity even so, it's the decent thing to do.

No. Demanding that other people indulge and enable your personal beliefs by providing to you that they've abandoned their own and put you first is not a 'decent' thing to do.

Respecting other people's diversity is a decent thing to do and it goes both ways

Tolerance is a decent thing to do and it goes both ways

Trans have been included in all spaces for a long time
There's never any proof of this, it's absolutely wishful thinking.

Trans have been included in all spaces for a long time,
I'm guessing what this poster is trying to say is that transwomen have been using women's spaces for some time. This may well be correct - the point is however that they did it without asking.
This is not, I would suggest, something to brag about and the fact that some people keep repeating this as if they think it makes everything OK is very revealing.

Floisme I'm not sure it is even true.
It's like Schrodinger's transwoman. Simultaneously there and undetectable. Except it doesn't account for the fact most women can clock most transwomen, the fact many women would have been to afraid or uncomfortable to challenge, the fact that trans identifying males in full "drag" were far rarer in the past, and despite there being so few mtf individuals, we've somehow all peed next to one in the past, and this has gone on for decades?

None of it seems very likely.

It's more that we can't prove it hasn't happened, rather than they can prove it has.

I mean, I could say that lizard people have lived alongside humans for hundreds of years, and when you ask me for proof, I say "see? You couldn't even tell they were there. That proves I'm right. And the fairy people too!"

@Floisme I would agree with you - making women uncomfortable or making them feel unsafe enough to leave is not something to brag about. We've seen plenty of TRA's gleefully posting pictures while standing in the women's toilets holding a bat, or laughing about women turning around and leaving due to their presence or the truly disgusting actions of some who are deliberately masturbating in women's toilets. All of whom seem happy to be taking photographs and/or video footage in place where women are undressed and vulnerable.

They just want to pee? Aye, right.

We've seen plenty of TRA's gleefully posting pictures while standing in the women's toilets holding a bat, or laughing about women turning around and leaving due to their presence or the truly disgusting actions of some who are deliberately masturbating in women's toilets. All of whom seem happy to be taking photographs and/or video footage in place where women are undressed and vulnerable.
Agreed I meant the argument that nice, harmless, totally indistinguishable transwomen have been in women's spaces for decades unbeknownst to us. Not the "fuck you feminazi I'm going to wank in your toilet and film it because I can" type.

Speaking strictly for me: This has happened to me more than once. I could see they were trans - to be honest, it was obvious - but I pretended not to notice for a variety of reasons. I imagine this was taken to mean either that I couldn't tell or that I didn't mind: incorrect on both counts.

Sorry - fast moving thread, I was replying to Flying0ink from a few posts back!

I'll still respect trans people's identity even so, it's the decent thing to do.

You can do that if you want. You can't, however, compel others to do the same, any more than you can compel them to respect the idea that God created the world in seven days.

I pretended not to notice for a variety of reasons. I imagine this was taken to mean either that I couldn't tell or that I didn't mind: incorrect on both counts.
100%
But what is the likelihood of you or I coming out with any other reaction, really? We're not socialised to challenge someone in that scenario, particularly if he's just washing his hands or whatever. And I'm not shy. But starting a conversation out of nowhere and challenging someone like that is much more difficult than just feeling uncomfortable and leaving. What percentage of women would say something? I'd suggest very few. What percentage noticed, what percentage were uncomfortable, what percentage have never seen a transwoman anywhere?
The assertion that we've all peed next to stealth transwomen is nonsense.

I totally agree with that Flyin0ink. The issue, I think, is that our reticence is being construed as consent when in fact we were never even asked.

our reticence is being construed as consent
Because men would react in a different way, and transwomen were socialised as men, so provided we don't go apeshit, we must be OK with it.
It's just male indifference, male-as-default bollocks.

Why didn't she fight back why didn't she run why didn't she just ask for a pay rise why didn't she just slap him why did she stay with him why does she spend all that time and money looking good
Men seem bewildered by women's reactions to things but it's just a lack of empathy.

Agreed (and I take your point about the apparent distinction between 'nice, harmless transwomen' and the ones having a wank). Many women have talked about catching the eye of another women in the toilet when there has also been a tranwoman in there and sort of doing a 'have you clocked this person? You OK?' type non verbal communication. It would be quite a brave woman to question someone in a confined space who has already shown that they don't respect single sex spaces - you've no idea if the reaction is likely to be aggressive.

So yes, lack of confrontation has been taken for acceptance, incorrectly.