The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

[MaudTheInvincible]

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

@Passmeamenuatthetottenham

It really is desperate that you have to hide the experimental drug treatment being given to children for unclear benefit behind the “if we don’t do this, contraception and abortion will be next!”

Yep, I mean I guess they should also be campaigning for tattoos for 13 year olds as well? Because if a 14 year old can't get a tattoo then surely that logically means they can't gain access to an abortion either...

Tattoos aren't a medical procedure, are they? Nor does being able to get them fall under Gillick competence. I'm not advocating for the removal of any restrictions on what children can do whatsoever and handing them all the keys to a Ferrari, a packet of Richmond superkings and a mortgage.

I'm saying that if one of treatment options - which do fall under Gillick competence, like abortion and contraception, hence why I mentioned them - for gender dysphoria in a person is medication that the age of the person choosing to make that healthcare decision should not always be a barrier to being able to receive it. And that blocking that means overturning Gillick competence which could have very concerning consequences for children's rights to accessing medical treatment more broadly.

But by all means, continue to wildly misinterpret what I'm saying.

I guess some people are doing a Jameela Jamil and getting puberty blockers mixed up with the contraceptive pill.

And yes, basically arguing that children should be allowed to consent to any medical treatment without parental consent because otherwise abortion rights are at risk is pretty shaky ground tbh.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

And yet, Jolyon Maugham's (t)wittering on the challenge centred on parental consent in the stead of the child. And the idea that a child could say no, and the parent's decision trumped the child's. Which sounds rather more like a threat to abortion accesa to me.

Yes - this should not be forgotten.

I'm saying that if one of treatment options - which do fall under Gillick competence, like abortion and contraception, hence why I mentioned them - for gender dysphoria in a person is medication that the age of the person choosing to make that healthcare decision should not always be a barrier to being able to receive it. And that blocking that means overturning Gillick competence which could have very concerning consequences for children's rights to accessing medical treatment more broadly.

Again, Gillick Competence is the principle that children can consent to certain things if they can understand the consequences.

Are you really saying that puberty blockers (and the fact that pretty much all kids who go onto puberty blockers go on to CSH) are comparable with the contraceptive pill?

And that if you understand the consequences of the Pill, you can understand the full consequences of a pathway of puberty blockers?

Seriously?

And no, a tattoo is not a medical procedure and doesn't come under Gillick. But why is it illegal for an under 18 to get a tattoo? What is the reasoning behind that?

This is going to be covered on the news on BBC1 any minute now....

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcone

Hmmmm ...
Not gonna argue here with those who might (do!) disagree

(I'm on shaky ground myself Re. PB's - Show me that they are safe and if required, reversible and I will sit down and shut up ... but until then ... I struggle with the argument ...)

But ... people here who say that therapy is the answer ...

Well. if you were right about that ... depression would not exist, Anorexia Nervosa would not exist ... Repeat Sex offending would not exist...

I'm gonna leave a link here without any comment ...

Access to abortion does not remotely work as a comparsion of a 14 year old girl giving consent for puberty blockers.

Any prengnacy comes with potential complications. To carry on with a pregnancy in itself comes with medical issues. To terminate the pregnancy comes with potential risks. There is no risk free solution once you find yourself pregnant.

That's the difference between being female or male. Women have to make these decisions - pregnancy "happens" to females not males. Similar bit of fun, but very different results.

No matter how female a male feels he will not have a pregancy ever "happen" to him and have to make decision of carrying or terminating a pregnancy.

So accessing abortion isn't a risk free but neither is pregnancy - both come with consequences so not remotely comparable with consent for puberty blockers etc.

The pregnancy starts and it carries on to a baby if a woman does not have the termination. Women spend their lives trying to avoid getting pregnant/getting pregnant/ weighing up decisions on terminations etc None of these are "feeling" female. That is being female. So our right to access abortion at any age is not a pawn for this stupid game they play.

@Tibtom

Given that puberty blockers are already used in children experiencing early onset puberty to delay it

They are also given for endometriosis and the directions state clearly that they can be prescribed just once for six months. The affect on women is considered so dangerous that after that once session they must not be prescribed again.

And the dose for adult women to treat endo is significantly lower (in the region of 50%, I looked it up) to that given for puberty blocking in gender non-conforming children, where it is also given for significantly longer. What could possibly go wrong?

But ... people here who say that therapy is the answer ...

Well. if you were right about that ... depression would not exist, Anorexia Nervosa would not exist ... Repeat Sex offending would not exist...

Ah yes, it doesn't matter if it helps many people or alleviates pain for most - unless it completely eradicates the problem for literally every person, it's useless and no-one should attempt to benefit from it.

That's the foundations of medical science, as I understand it.

I'm very glad those who are delighted that the law requires a doctor to be sure a child is fully and freely consenting to medical interventions which stunt their growth because of a subjective, ill-defined notion of 'gender' are posting so fulsomely here.

It will be useful to have a written record to point to when the children damaged by such a cavalier attitude to such bizarre medical interventions decide to sue the fucking arse off those doctors. Not for any other reason but to know there were indeed people who thought deliberately stopping children developing properly and then putting them on the path to sterilization was a great and wonderful thing.

You'll be like phrenology and lobotomy enthusiasts. Won't that be nice for you.

I didn't know this was happening today until it flashed up on my phone. It has made me so sad. The state of child protection in this country is woeful.

But ... people here who say that therapy is the answer ...

Well. if you were right about that ... depression would not exist, Anorexia Nervosa would not exist ... Repeat Sex offending would not exist...

Are you saying that we just shouldn't bother with therapy for people with anorexia then?

That's a familiar line I see trans activists spin around safeguarding all the time MonsignorMirth: if a safeguarding measure does not give 100% protection 100% of the time, it needs to be discarded.

I’m not sure that puberty blockers are that useful here. The initial stages of puberty are both the treatment and the filter. 80% of those with gender dysphoria will desist with puberty. Those that don’t can go for medical transition. This has been the safe model in the past. It’s what psychiatrists and psychologists have done for decades.

PBs only suspend the decision without any new information and without the right brain development. Sex hormones are critical for brain development and maturation. A more useful approach would be not to use PBs but examine and research at what age should cross sex hormones begin? 16? 18? 20? There is certainly no rush with f2ms.

But this:
I think they should be free to be themselves as they are.

Is a gross misunderstanding of what it means to be transsexual or have severe dysphoria. It’s not about clothes and make up or blue or pink. It’s about looking in the mirror and knowing that the sex of the person you see is instinctively and consistently wrong. The sex that other people see you as just feels wrong. That’s true for m2fs and f2ms. Call it sex or gender, or male, man or female, woman; they mean the same thing in the end.

@nauticant

That's a familiar line I see trans activists spin around safeguarding all the time MonsignorMirth: if a safeguarding measure does not give 100% protection 100% of the time, it needs to be discarded.

An yes the old 'some men are gonna rape you anyway so you might as well just let all men who want to use the ladies facilities use them' argument.

Great. So well thought out....

I've long believed that a hidden reason to prescribed puberty blockers is to embed dysphoria into a child. They operate to prevent desistance.

Passmeamenuatthetottenham

Are you saying that we just shouldn't bother with therapy for people with anorexia then?

No

Just pointing out that whilst therapy can be useful for many people ... there are some for whom it offers no respite.

So, If I am asking anything its ... 'What happens to those people? what do we do for them?

@MonsignorMirth

Can I genuinely ask the two posters celebrating and urging faster treatment what gender has to do with physical bodies? If gender is innate and entirely separate from sex, why does anyone need to change their body? I really struggle with this. The way people insist a trans person's body must be changed from 'male-looking' to 'female-looking' or vice versa implies there is something to do with biological sex that overlaps with gender. But what and how? How can people also claim that these are separate and different ones handed out at birth?

It's not "people" wanting this, it is trans people, who are the most directly affected. The day we start telling them they don't know what they want is the day we take the first steps on a very slippery path.

[quote Signalbox]Since when did puberty become optional?

Watch this space. The next stage in this shit show is “ongoing puberty suppression” for non-binary individuals who don’t want to develop either male or female sex characteristics. I can imagine it could also end up being a treatment for anorexia.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7656150/[/quote]
But prepubescent children all know if they are a boy or girl. Not going through puberty won’t change that.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

And yet, Jolyon Maugham's (t)wittering on the challenge centred on parental consent in the stead of the child. And the idea that a child could say no, and the parent's decision trumped the child's. Which sounds rather more like a threat to abortion accesa to me.

But also, potentially, the other way round: could a parent consent to an abortion for a child who does not want it?

I am so devastated by this news

It's not "people" wanting this, it is trans people, who are the most directly affected. The day we start telling them they don't know what they want is the day we take the first steps on a very slippery path.

Right, @ceto but I'm not telling anyone anything - I'm asking. You can see what I'm asking by reading the words in my post. I note no-one has answered properly yet, just suggested different terms.

And do note that it's children we are talking about. The day you start telling parents their children know what is best for them in every circumstance, at age 3, 4, 5 or whatever, is the day you take your first steps on a slippery path.

It's not "people" wanting this, it is trans people, who are the most directly affected. The day we start telling them they don't know what they want is the day we take the first steps on a very slippery path.

And yet this entire thread exists because a person who asked for and received treatment now realises she didn't want what she thought she wanted, and wants to make sure others don't make the same permanent mistake that she did.

If there was an agreed definition of "trans" and a perfect test that could differentiate between trans people and confused people there would be no problem (well, there would still be the question of whether the drugs are safe and provide the best outcome but let's draw a polite veil over that for now). But there isn't, and that means there is a risk that a very damaging treatment is given to the wrong people. It is not just ok to question whether children asking for this really know what they are asking for, it's essential.