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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'The broadcaster Carrie Grant and her presenter husband once had three daughters. Now she is the only female'

174 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/09/2021 09:39

Article in Sunday Times today. Afraid I don't have a share token. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4f956268-1336-11ec-a8a6-db0b408d06d6?shareToken=e9d28aa2838a4d2fd0f5590b44444fe2

I know nothing about this couple but apparently they are both TV presenters. They have four children, the eldest two being young adults now. The three female children are all now identifying as other things and have changed their names. According to the comments, she has previously talked about her children having ADHD, being on the autistic spectrum, having various mental health issues - but none of that is mentioned in this article. Hmm.

This is a bit concerning. Carrie is speaking for the first time about the complexities of family life with children who question their gender before a conference this month called The Gender Agenda, at which she and her husband are appearing. At the event, organised by Oasis, the biggest schools academies trust, guidelines will be published for teachers on how to handle boys who want to be girls and vice versa.

I hope there's going to be a range of opinions.

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 12/09/2021 16:06

Steve Chalke used to come to my school and sing songs about not starting smoking [nostalgia]

I can imagine that 'in God there is neither male nor female' might have influence in evangelical circles? And the constant redemption/revelation/conversion events (I'm a boy!) are a familiar emotional trope for Christians (I'm saved!)

FloralBunting · 12/09/2021 16:08

@LobsterNapkin

Progressive Christians in the main are extremely vulnerable to this kind of bad thinking. They threw any kind of serious scholarship out the window 50 years ago and have at the same time a strong sense of the need for radical love (which is good in itself) but what that means is driven by secular culture and what makes them feel good. It's not a great combination.

Biut - aside from this trauma question, and we don't really know what is involved with these specific kids, it is absolutly and completely normal for teenagers to feel out of place in the world and try and shore up their sense of self in various ways. We all know that teens try and build a persona around things like clothing styles, music, changing their names, that they are obsessed with things like personality tests to tell them who they really are, or they want to be a preppy kid, a jock, a goth, they read dystopian novels and write bad morbid poetry to show how bad their lives are. It's so common it's unremarkable, especially among girls.

One new way of doing this is to adopt an weird, but not too weird, gender identity, say they are pansexual, get a medical diagnosis, become an activist for the oppressed group they now belong to, change their clothes and hairstyle, be affirmed by their school LBGTQ+ group and the internet.

Of course this appeals to the same teenage kids who were attracted to punk, goth, grunge. I'm not even convinced that growing up to be gay or lesbian is anymore an especially common characteristic of this group, as it seemed to be a few years ago.

The really important point though is that the dedication to these labels is typically something kids grow out of, even if they keep listening to the music, or have some stylistic preferences. Maturity isn't about seeing yourself through that kind of lens, it's about realizing that we don't need these kinds of labels and that they tend to be a rather shallow way of looking at the world.

The fact that adults are affirming this stuff is crazy.

I completely concur. The mercy is that Grant seems to be simply trying to display her accepting credentials with her special identity children, she isn't actively demanding medical intervention and actually seems quite reluctant to pursue that (and thank fuck for that, 'tis the only sensible thing she says in the piece).
FloralBunting · 12/09/2021 16:10

@PermanentTemporary

Steve Chalke used to come to my school and sing songs about not starting smoking [nostalgia]

I can imagine that 'in God there is neither male nor female' might have influence in evangelical circles? And the constant redemption/revelation/conversion events (I'm a boy!) are a familiar emotional trope for Christians (I'm saved!)

100% I've seen talk about transgender identities being like the doctrine of the Trinity. "You can't try and understand the Trinity, you just accept it, and if you can do that, then you should do the same for trans identities etc."
NinaGonk · 12/09/2021 16:10

This reply has been deleted

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Namechangeapologies · 12/09/2021 16:16

He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created.
Genesis 5.2

The thing which gets me, having a 12 year old daughter going into her teenage years, is my memories of that slow dawning/realisation of the unfairnesses attached to (in my case) the female gender whilst I was going through my teenage years.

In my day it was just "well life is not fair" and you had to just accept it. And the approach was strictly within the confines of the feminism movement (with limited success).
Now it seems the idea of changing gender could be seen to be an attempt by the individual in question to escape the "unfairness" of social attitudes to being female (and vice versa if you were born male but want to become female etc).

Betty91 · 12/09/2021 16:21

Chalke sounds well dodgy. Nice cult to jump into and become the new spokesperson.

PermanentTemporary · 12/09/2021 16:23

But namechange the New Testament will trump Genesis for evangelicals.

Prioritising gender identity is supposed to remove the unfairness of sexism. I don't believe it will or does but I think that's what trans activists might say.

Hattie765 · 12/09/2021 16:30

It's the "I'm the only female" bit that gets me. No, there are still the same amount of females there's always been.

FloralBunting · 12/09/2021 16:33

Chalke sounds well dodgy. Nice to jump into and become the new spokesperson.

Quoted and edited in case you get deleted for the C-word, but relevant story - I got married in a church loosely connected to Chalke et al. My dad is a staunch atheist and a bit of a cock, though he's mellowed over the years. He told me that the pastor who married me, and was both friends with Chalke and had a similar style of delivery, gave him the willies because he was like the leader of a c-word group.

My dad is a suspicious bastard but he's not actually been too far wrong in character assessments over the years. This might be deleted, but what the hell.

Namechangeapologies · 12/09/2021 16:38

Permanent

I think the debate arising from Genesis is that that verse reinforces the binary nature. Which could be true at the same time as the argument that God is neither male nor female - I think those two things dont cancel each other out.

"Prioritising gender identity is supposed to remove the unfairness of sexism. I don't believe it will or does but I think that's what trans activists might say."

I really do not get the logic of a teenager thinking to themselves "being a girl in 2021 is shite" therefore "I will transition into a boy". That line of thought seems to ignore the fact that both sexes face their own difficulties as a result of sexism or society assumptions about what a female is and what a male is.
The very idea that mankind (whether male or female) are made in the image of God seems to be the opposite of this (i.e. the biblical position seems to be to celebrate both sexes equally and accept them, not try to push the boundaries of science to make your birth sex the topic of cutting edge medical advances.

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 12/09/2021 16:43

@Badbadbunny

Isn;t Carrie the one who did a children's TV singing program with her husband, but she can't sing, and all her "signing" was supplemented by backing vocalists? How did she manage to get a job on a TV program that involved singing when she can't sing herself?

Probably just identified as a singer. It seems to work for everything else..

Betty91 · 12/09/2021 16:48

Thank you @FloralBunting I was unaware that word was a banned word. Sorry all round Mumsnet...

But that's very interesting. I thought so because someone mentioned in the thread about singing songs about smoking and I got impression he's jumping on the cause of the day to promote himself and his influence.

Blibbyblobby · 12/09/2021 16:50

Now the attention comes from changing pronouns, or genders.

I feel sorry for young people today.

Honestly, I think this gender questioning and fluidity is at heart a good and positive thing.

What is not positive is that genderists, using some very bad logic and some very good marketing, have managed to harness people's natural questioning and rejection of gender constructs in support of a movement that centres gender constructs.

GC analysis should not be telling kids challenging gender they are mistaken, because really, they aren't, and they know that. Their only mistake is in thinking that challenging gender should have anything at all to do with what sex they are.

Instead, we need to put our focus into breaking that fallacious link between that rejecting the gender stereotypes attached to sex and rejecting the concept of sex itself.

So leave people to enjoy their explorations, experiments and coining of ever more specific labels for smaller and smaller boxes, and just focus on calling out every time someone blurs the boundary between sex and gender to make the point that as long as society has structural and cultural sexism, sex will matter to female people on a way it doesn't to male, and that this is an entirely separate issue to whether people feel free to express their feelings (or not) of gender.

MsFogi · 12/09/2021 16:52

I think the thing that really concerns me here is the idea that "Oasis, the biggest schools academy trust" is running conference with Mermaids and the Proud Trust - this is totally nuts that such lobby groups are having such an impact on education. What on earth are the Trustees thinking of!?*!? Any mner with a child in one of the schools in this true should be going mad!!

FloralBunting · 12/09/2021 16:56

@MsFogi

I think the thing that really concerns me here is the idea that "Oasis, the biggest schools academy trust" is running conference with Mermaids and the Proud Trust - this is totally nuts that such lobby groups are having such an impact on education. What on earth are the Trustees thinking of!?*!? Any mner with a child in one of the schools in this true should be going mad!!
I would agree, but this isn't a case of Mermaids and the Proud Trust influencing a hitherto sound organization. If you check out Oasis Trust you'll be presented with a very on-message progressive group. Any parent who sends their child to one of these schools should make themselves aware that the academy trust is already completely captured.
Betty91 · 12/09/2021 17:03

@MsFogi

I think the thing that really concerns me here is the idea that "Oasis, the biggest schools academy trust" is running conference with Mermaids and the Proud Trust - this is totally nuts that such lobby groups are having such an impact on education. What on earth are the Trustees thinking of!?*!? Any mner with a child in one of the schools in this true should be going mad!!
I absolutely agree. The key issue in this piece is not Carrie and her family - it's the influence this Gender Agenda will have over 52 schools!

Where are you Gavin Williamson and Ofsted?

Immunetypegoblin · 12/09/2021 17:04

I have to say, I read this and got the impression she's treading very carefully. Effectively she's said they're just going along with whatever the kids say and trying to avoid medical intervention for as long as they can. I think that's what I'd go for were I in her situation, frankly, and I'm fiercely GC.

Betty91 · 12/09/2021 17:09

I'm not sure she's being cautious - being cautious would be watchful waiting privately rather than speaking at teaching conference. She's totally unquestioning as to why this apparently innate and unusual occurrence has happened to 3/4 of her children.

Whitefire · 12/09/2021 17:11

Having just had a little look, it seems that the conference is being run by Oasis, which is the overall charity rather than the Oasis Educational Trust. Not that that makes the affiliation with Mermaids and The Proud Trust (are they them of the dice game?) any better.

www.oasisuk.org/campaign/inclusion-lgbtq/

Mrsjamin · 12/09/2021 17:15

Oh dear dear. I'm very worried for all the children at oasis academy Trust schools. Sad

nauticant · 12/09/2021 17:18

The mercy is that Grant seems to be simply trying to display her accepting credentials with her special identity children, she isn't actively demanding medical intervention and actually seems quite reluctant to pursue that (and thank fuck for that, 'tis the only sensible thing she says in the piece).

That looks like getting the kudos while having the means to protect her children so they don't (although there are no guarantees) move on to the irreversible and damaging parts of the process. Other children cheerled into this won't be so lucky. The Pied Piper of Hamelin comes to mind.

Betty91 · 12/09/2021 17:20

Are they not linked to the Academy? I got my wires mixed then. I thought they were all part of the same group.

It's a free online event.. assuming all their pioneers will be singing from same hymn sheet .... as it were... rather than spouting heresy like "sex is immutable"

On Tuesday, 28 September 2021 we are holding a free online conference to explore the inclusion of transgender people in education, faith communities and the workplace, in collaboration with Mermaids UK and Proud Trust.

The Gender Agenda conference will bring together Transgender pioneers and their allies to consider transgender issues and how best to support people identifying as being in transition.

We will look at the journey that a trans person and their families face, the importance of support and how this can happen well. This will be considered in the different ways that this can take place in schools, communities, faith organisations and employment.

Whitefire · 12/09/2021 17:27

Sorry I wasn't very clear, Oasis is the overall charity, it has many segments other than the education trust.

I have started watching a you tube video of SC, I'll save judgement until I have watched it all.

Ionlydomassiveones · 12/09/2021 18:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Clymene · 12/09/2021 18:17

@Immunetypegoblin

I have to say, I read this and got the impression she's treading very carefully. Effectively she's said they're just going along with whatever the kids say and trying to avoid medical intervention for as long as they can. I think that's what I'd go for were I in her situation, frankly, and I'm fiercely GC.
Being cautious would be not looking to monetise every nuance of their children's development. I cannot imagine the impact on your MH if everything you do is flogged to the media at the earliest opportunity by your parents.
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