Erasure of 'the Ladies'

[BaronMunchausen]

I saw this sign in a pub at the weekend. The Ladies replaced by "gender neutral", Gents untouched. Anyone can go into what used to be the Ladies'. How common is this now?

I think for now we'll stay online supporters.
Again, a shame since we're Glasgow based.

This sort of stuff...

In a pub. Is it a late night lively one?

With people getting trashed?

If so. I mean the issue is obvious.

From young men having a laugh with it, to creeps following women in who want to get away from them but don't want to stop their night out.

Realistically if a lively place then young women want to do makeup, have a natter, a bit of a cry etc. Not the same if pissed blokes might rock in.

And it's another situation where the women would be safer in the gents.

But look! Gents still single sex.

Humph.

@TooBigForMyBoots

I'm not the most observant of people (I never noticed the small print!), but I did not see any other toilets. Or signs: this one isveryprominent as you come in.

It's Lavery's, a large bar complex that is decades old. There are numerous Ladies toilets. The gender neutral toilets have been signposted at the door for a few years now. I thought it was so their trans clientele had somewhere to go, away from the Ladies and the Gents.

Lavery's is next door to the Woodworkers, which has its own separate booking system. Because of covid there was table service only, and we were wristbanded as we came in - presumably to our particular table in Woodworkers to discourage mixing? It certainly never occurred to me to go wandering out to the next door bar in search of toilets.

As a first-time customer with no local knowledge, this was absolutely the only toilet sign I saw....and while I didn't notice the small print, it does say 'please ask a staff member', not 'Ladies are in the bar next door'. Why would it say that if it was obvious where to find the Ladies?

The female customers in Woodworkers were using the 'Gender neutral' toilets. In Woodworkers.

[quote ISpyCobraKai]@Artichokeleaves
Or she'd be accepted if she was at a GC gathering with me.
She's 20, she doesn't need a uniform, she can express herself however she wants and its a shame she should have to consider changing now because of her beliefs which have absolutely nothing to do with how she presents herself.
Scaring off 20yr old GC young adults by judging their appearance is not the way to go.[/quote]
Plenty of excitingly coloured hair, heavy tattoos, multiple piercings, shaved heads etc etc amongst women at feminist things I've been to.

The blue hair thing is about a tribe. Like goths/ rockers/ indie / casuals etc in my day.

It doesn't mean that anyone who is GNC is unwelcome :/

In the things I've been too there's been either a massive majority of v gnc women or at least enough to make more than a few. Depending on the type of event.

Blatant discrimination. Is it about not wanting women in pubs? Is there a move to going back to the 1950’s when women didn’t go into pubs. Are they excluding women on purpose? I wouldn’t feel safe there so wouldn’t go there.

If that isn't a big 'Fuck You' to all women and girls, I don't know what is

Women's Rights have just been reversed 200 years with that one sign.

Name and Shame.

Woodworkers has it's own separate booking system, but it's just the hipster part of the Lav's complex. It was known by a different hipster name before the refurb.

The Ladies are on the ground floor, close to the sign you have photographed.

Realistically if a lively place then young women want to do makeup, have a natter, a bit of a cry etc. Not the same if pissed blokes might rock in.

Nobody really rocks in because it's so badly signposted. But once you do come in, it's spacious and clean with loads of cubicles. On the rare occasion that there is a queue, it's in a corridor behind an unsignposted door.

Men go upstairs.

@TooBigForMyBoots

Woodworkers has it's own separate booking system, but it's just the hipster part of the Lav's complex. It was known by a different hipster name before the refurb.

The Ladies are on the ground floor, close to the sign you have photographed.

I didn't see a Ladies. Why would the small print on the sign say to ask a staff member if there was a Ladies close to it? Including "Ladies" with an arrow pointing in its direction would be more sensible.

Including "Ladies" with an arrow pointing in its direction would be more sensible.

You're totally right @BaronMunchausen. That's what I thought the first time I went in. I wandered into the Gin Palace before I asked where to go.

@TooBigForMyBoots

Realistically if a lively place then young women want to do makeup, have a natter, a bit of a cry etc. Not the same if pissed blokes might rock in.

Nobody really rocks in because it's so badly signposted. But once you do come in, it's spacious and clean with loads of cubicles. On the rare occasion that there is a queue, it's in a corridor behind an unsignposted door.

Men go upstairs.

What if a man feels too pissed to negotiate the stairs?

Or is just so pissed he heads for where he knows the nearest bog for him is?

What if a bloke feels not comfy heading upstairs away from staff to the gents because a bloke's been giving him nasty looks and he's hard looking?

What if him and his mates want to do some coke and there's no decent surfaces/ they're not keen to do it in the gents?

What if a pissed up couple of blokes think haha let's go in there?

Etc etc etc.

I don't know what sort of pub it is obv!

May not be as. Erm. Lively as that!

It's not that "lively" in that way @NiceGerbil, but it's a long established pub with a lively/chilled vibe. It was one of the few integrated hangouts during the troubles and the first one I knew of in Belfast, committed to getting women home safely. It opens late and is next door to a theatre.

As the OP said, the sign is close to the door, so the bouncers are never far from the door leading to the Ladies. It's very well run.

What if a man feels too pissed to negotiate the stairs?
Then he's too pissed to find the Ladies and just follows the arrow.

I was thinking more about negotiating the stairs!

If the idea is that the ladies has become mixed sex while the men's is still male won't actually change anything in practice because

It's not a pub where people get smashed

The bouncers are near the ladies so would.. stop anyone they think is male going in? Why would they? It's mixed sex says so on the door.
Or do you mean Chuck out if women say dodgy? Again on what grounds if being really creepy but doing nothing illegal (loads of blokes who like upsetting women/ girls navigate this line).

But changing things to mixed sex on the basis of well in reality nothing will change is naive.

Single sex stuff is there because things could happen.
Removing them on the basis. Well probably no blokes will go in there anyway is a short sighted cop-out.

IMO.

The Ladies has not become mixed sex.

In this establishment, Gents and Gender Neutral toilets are on the first floor. They are well signposted. The Ladies toilets are on the ground floor. They exist but are not well signposted.

Oh sorry got it now! Ok.

If the signposting to the ladies is poor there's the issue of women who haven't been there before heading to the gender neutral though.

But that's not so bad at all.

Someone should mention the signposting to ladies should be better signposted to the landlord if they are regs maybe.

Having read your posts @NiceGerbil, I'm not sure I want to inform men where the women's toilets are. As with most things, it's probably better to ask a nearby woman.

Most don't ask though I for one follow the signs and would think ok men, gender neutral. Fucks sake. But I need a pee. Iyswim!

See, I didn't think that. I thought "Not my toilets, where are the Ladies?" Then I asked a woman who told me.

Ah well everyone's different.

There is plenty of places with men/ anyone round here so I wouldn't for a second given the signage think there was a ladies as well. I'd just think FFS.

But the sign says Gender specific toilets are on every floor, please ask a staff member.

@TooBigForMyBoots

But the sign says Gender specific toilets are on every floor, please ask a staff member.

I suspect the small print isn't legible from the distance you're at to read the main lettering - and once you've established where the bogs are you generally run off to them and don't stop to check the small print on the directions.

Anyways, I won't be going back in a hurry unless I win the lottery!

Aw that's a shame because it really is a properly inclusive bar. It's even inclusive of middle aged women. I stick to the other side of the complex. It's cool and dark in summer, cosy in winter and nobody bothers you.

Sounds like it's cheaper too.

Just a thought, having read the latest posts...

They have clearly signposted gents and gender neutral. Are they actually trying to keep the ladies hidden from those who firmly believe they are women despite having male biology and who would deliberately make a point of using the ladies?? Maybe they are actually trying to keep the ladies single sex?? I mean, it's not ideal for women to have to ask to find them but they may be employing sneak tactics to help out. Just a thought though!

Are they actually trying to keep the ladies hidden...

Following @NiceGerbil's posts, I'm beginning to think so too @GertrudeKerfuffle. Maybe they had bother with people just charging into the nearest toilets to the door instead of the appropriate one, and so took the Ladies sign off.