Strange interaction at work yesterday.

[WhatsAppening]

I work in a pub.

A person with obviously male features and clothes came in. This person spoke in a manner that led us to immediately think they had some additional needs. I’m only saying that because I think it’s relevant. They asked for a glass of tap water.

About ten minutes later they asked to use the toilets. My colleague said ‘sure mate, toilets are down there’.

‘I’m actually female’

Oh ok [confused as to the relevance]

‘My pronouns are she/her, I’m transgender’

Nod and smile.

‘Don’t worry though, I don’t get angry when people get it wrong’ this was said in a manner that suggested they would, actually.

More nodding and smiling.

Toilets are still down there love. (they are unisex. We have one room with six closed off cubicles and a shared sink, we hate it but that’s how it is).

Person then used the facilities and left without saying anything else or finishing the glass of water.

The whole interaction felt like a huge trap. I get the impression this person was building up courage to have this conversation based on toilet provision and was trying to be directed to the ladies.

I just felt sad for this person who is obviously troubled and has latched on to this as a way to fit in (or stand out?), but also angry to have been put in that position, it was all just so confrontational and strange. It’s the first time anything like this has happened to me other than from my own blue haired ‘she/they’ teenager. But they were 100% looking for us to challenge them.

It was just…weird.

Not sure why I’m posting really, other than to get it off my mind.

manifestdestinee But why were you so irritated? What does it matter if someone guessed her sex wrong

1)Because of the stereotyping that women should be dressed with a full face of make up, long hair and feminine clothes to be identified as female. If they bothered to look they would see she clearly has a female figure and feminine features

2)because in today's equality and diversity world this is just sheer laziness

3. she has SEND and struggles to fit in with the world with people making it harder

4. she was upset and unzipped her jacket and said I'd better show my boobs off then

If in doubt - don't say anything beyond that which is absolutely necessary

2)because in today's equality and diversity world this is just sheer laziness

People make mistakes. It really shouldn't be a big deal.

@EdgeOfACoin

I would just like to point out that our resident TRAs have felt the need to post on this thread about public toilets.

Yet they were curiously silent on the latest WiSpa thread.

The focus is on toilets/bathrooms. Always.

On another thread, a regular TRA has been asked repeatedly by numerous posters to comment on the Wi Spa incident as it relates directly to the OP. No answer. Still posting but just completely ignoring the questions. It seems to be a common tactic when it simply doesn't fit their narrative.

@Jakadaal

manifestdestinee But why were you so irritated? What does it matter if someone guessed her sex wrong

1)Because of the stereotyping that women should be dressed with a full face of make up, long hair and feminine clothes to be identified as female. If they bothered to look they would see she clearly has a female figure and feminine features

2)because in today's equality and diversity world this is just sheer laziness

3. she has SEND and struggles to fit in with the world with people making it harder

4. she was upset and unzipped her jacket and said I'd better show my boobs off then

If in doubt - don't say anything beyond that which is absolutely necessary

That' s absolute bollocks though, isn't it? There is no such stereotyping at al,. In fact the ONLY people who link being a woman to hair make up and skirts are the TRA's. It's not laziness, it's heuristic classification, and if she was upset it was probably because you were goading her into being so, instead of being sensible.

Where do you people get such nonsense from?

The world doesn't work like that, Jakadaal, and teaching your daughter to ignore this kind of thing is by far the kindest thing to do because I assure you, as a woman with short hair, jeans, a shirt and no make-up, it will happen again and again.

OP, I have a friend who used to meet up with other lesbians in her local pub once a month and as the group grew the landlord moved them to a back room so they had a bit of privacy. Then one day a bloke dressed as a woman and a nervous-looking straight woman arrived and he insisted they were lesbians and wanted to join the group. He wouldn't leave and then he started insulting them. The women asked the man and his 'wife' to leave, he refused, voices were raised and the women called the police and reported a homophobic crime. The landlord threw them all out — the man and woman for causing trouble, the lesbians for bringing trouble down on him. He refused to let them meet there the following month. He privately let my friend know that he was sorry, he had a couple of young bar staff who were furious with the 'terfs' and he couldn't let them come back.

They wondered about reporting him for discrimination but decided that life was difficult enough for him anyway. They found somewhere else and pretend to be a women's book group.

wrongsideof so if this was to happen in a medical appointment or a similar setting it would be ok?

But that would be a mistake so that's ok?

How would it happen in a medical setting? The HCP would presumably know who was coming for the appointment and/or look at her for considerably longer than the doorman. Even if they did somehow assume she was a boy, again, it's not a judgement or a negative comment. It's an error that needs neutrally correcting and moving on.

Jakadaal but it wasn't a medical appointment - it was a bouncer who barely noted your daughter apart from 'short hair' and 'not drunk'.

I can't understand why you're labouring the point. This is a 'no harm done' situation.

@Jakadaal

wrongsideof so if this was to happen in a medical appointment or a similar setting it would be ok?

But that would be a mistake so that's ok?

But it wasn't a situation where your daughter was being dealt with as herself, so to speak. She was a random passerby whom the doorman gave no more than a seconds thought to, such is the nature of his job. You sound so ridiculously wound up about this? It's happened to most of us and the sky didn't fall in...

so if this was to happen in a medical appointment or a similar setting it would be ok?
Fabulous whatabouttery >

BTW I am female, tall with short hair and don't wear make-up or earrings, and am usually in jeans or joggers. I've had 'sir', 'mate' etc for years. You deal with it.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse "I'm a short-haired woman and I've been called 'son' more times than I can count. I really don't care. People do make mistakes and accidentally mis-sex people"

Exactly. And what do you do in this situation when it looks like the bar staff have got it wrong and you think they are about to direct you to the men's toilets? You say 'Actually I'm female and I need the women's toilets' or some variation thereof, and you get directed correctly.

Which is exactly what happened in this scenario.

If butch lesbians or women that present in a more masculine style are frequently mis-sexed (yes, this does happen regularly) why should it not be the case that this is exactly the situation that has happened in the OP's post?

But people want a solution. Perhaps they would like people to pull their trousers down a la Nazi Germany looking for Jewish men?

[quote suggestionsplease1]**@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse* "I'm a short-haired woman and I've been called 'son' more times than I can count. I really don't care. People do make mistakes and accidentally mis-sex people"*

Exactly. And what do you do in this situation when it looks like the bar staff have got it wrong and you think they are about to direct you to the men's toilets? You say 'Actually I'm female and I need the women's toilets' or some variation thereof, and you get directed correctly.

Which is exactly what happened in this scenario.

If butch lesbians or women that present in a more masculine style are frequently mis-sexed (yes, this does happen regularly) why should it not be the case that this is exactly the situation that has happened in the OP's post?

But people want a solution. Perhaps they would like people to pull their trousers down a la Nazi Germany looking for Jewish men?[/quote]
Well no, because the person in question was a man and in this situation was correctly sexed. He’s not female, no matter how he identifies.

‘I’m actually female’

'Oh ok [confused as to the relevance]

‘My pronouns are she/her, I’m transgender’

If this situation is exactly the same, surely the pronouns would be he/him? If this is a female who is transgender, they would surely use male or non binary or neo pronouns rather than she/her pronouns?

@Waitwhat23

‘I’m actually female’

'Oh ok [confused as to the relevance]

‘My pronouns are she/her, I’m transgender’

If this situation is exactly the same, surely the pronouns would be he/him? If this is a female who is transgender, they would surely use male or non binary or neo pronouns rather than she/her pronouns?

This is one of those ‘hoisted on their own petard’ moments.

I saw a response to a comment under an online news item the other day, calling the initial commenter a ‘typical bloke’ and ‘transphobic’ for supporting Sonia Appleby

I asked how he knew the previous poster identified as a bloke, as he hasn’t stated his gender identity - therefore wasn’t he potentially misgendering him by making that assumption, and being transphobic himself?

He never replied and deleted his comment… no doubt off to call someone else transphobic who hopefully won’t use his own logic against him

When my son was a toddler, we were sitting on a bench having a snack. We had been to the park and I had all the bits and bobs you have when out with a toddler. Wouldn't be able to get away from any situation quickly. I had my phone in my hand. We were chatting away and it was very quiet. Except for a lone chappie who wandered towards us. He didn't go past. He came over and said that he had lost his wallet and could he have a pound for the bus. Then he did a creepy smile and said 'don't worry, I'm not going to steal your phone'. It was done in such a way that I knew that i'd better not refuse the money or he would easily. Reminding me of how vulnerable I was compared to him. I was worried as I had my toddler with me and this was some dodgy git. I paid the 'protection' money to get rid of him.

Your experience gives me the same vibe. Absolutely an implied threat saying they 'won't get angry' at you. Kind of like they won't hurt you, because they are choosing to be nice. Reminds you that they could choose to as well. Also someone saying 'I won't have a meltdown' is also an implied threat. As in, don't worry i won't lash out at you. It is aggression.

Women normally say things like 'I'm not that fragile' or 'I'll survive' in situations like that. Not give a reminder that they very kindly won't attack you. This time. But you have been put on notice that you had better watch your step. And walk carefully on the arbitrary eggshells.

[quote suggestionsplease1]**@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse* "I'm a short-haired woman and I've been called 'son' more times than I can count. I really don't care. People do make mistakes and accidentally mis-sex people"*

Exactly. And what do you do in this situation when it looks like the bar staff have got it wrong and you think they are about to direct you to the men's toilets? You say 'Actually I'm female and I need the women's toilets' or some variation thereof, and you get directed correctly.

Which is exactly what happened in this scenario.

If butch lesbians or women that present in a more masculine style are frequently mis-sexed (yes, this does happen regularly) why should it not be the case that this is exactly the situation that has happened in the OP's post?

But people want a solution. Perhaps they would like people to pull their trousers down a la Nazi Germany looking for Jewish men?[/quote]
Except that no lesbian or female would ever say ‘Don’t worry though, I don’t get angry when people get it wrong’. That's the kind of thing men say. When women are misgendered that laugh about it, or open their jacket to show their breasts, or they say 'Actually, I'm a woman.' And their voice is almost always all anyone needs to hear to confirm that they're telling the truth.

'I don't get angry when people get it wrong' is pure entitled male passive aggression, warning the woman (I'm assuming the OP is female, I many be wrong) behind the bar that he'll get really angry if she crosses him. Makes me think of Yaniv.

That’s awful @Cailleach1 and made me feel sick to read. How dare he. It’s infuriating that we have to indulge these people or take a personal risk of being harmed.

@Cerebelle

“I’m not going to have a meltdown” sounds threatening to me.

It would depend entirely on how it was said. I can imagine it being said with a smile and a laugh which would be absolutely fine. Especially if already familiar with the person saying it. Less of a threat and more poking fun at those who do throw tantrums over such things.

OP's scenario sounds stressful and fairly intimidating. You were lucky to be able to defuse so well.

If the person was already familiar with SoulMan, the subject wouldn’t arise, though.

Such a comment, even with “a smile and a laugh” from a unknown male-born person (who is possibly demonstrating their paraphilia) would not lessen the feeling of threat for me. I thought SoulMan and others who feel that way might be willing to hear that from an anonymous Internet forum, as many including me would be uncomfortable telling them face-to-face.

But people want a solution. Perhaps they would like people to pull their trousers down a la Nazi Germany looking for Jewish men?

Comparing women who want and need single sex spaces for their safety and privacy to Nazis is stupid and utterly offensive.

@Realyorkshiretea I really hope so because the possibility that someone is going to say 'well of course they can present as a man and still have she/her pronouns - you should somehow know how complete strangers have chosen to gender themselves, you horrible transphobes!' is too fucking awful to contemplate.

Women get called mate where I live so round here it would be even more strange.

@NiceGerbil

Women get called mate where I live so round here it would be even more strange.

I call everyone mate too although DH pointed out with my accent it makes me sound like Kerry Mucklowe

I thought these days calling someone 'mate' was a bit like how North American people call each other 'dude', started out male but now more generally used.

I'm wondering what's the appropriate punishment for a security guard who gets someone's sex wrong. A spell in the gulag?

@Cailleach1

When my son was a toddler, we were sitting on a bench having a snack. We had been to the park and I had all the bits and bobs you have when out with a toddler. Wouldn't be able to get away from any situation quickly. I had my phone in my hand. We were chatting away and it was very quiet. Except for a lone chappie who wandered towards us. He didn't go past. He came over and said that he had lost his wallet and could he have a pound for the bus. Then he did a creepy smile and said 'don't worry, I'm not going to steal your phone'. It was done in such a way that I knew that i'd better not refuse the money or he would easily. Reminding me of how vulnerable I was compared to him. I was worried as I had my toddler with me and this was some dodgy git. I paid the 'protection' money to get rid of him.

Your experience gives me the same vibe. Absolutely an implied threat saying they 'won't get angry' at you. Kind of like they won't hurt you, because they are choosing to be nice. Reminds you that they could choose to as well. Also someone saying 'I won't have a meltdown' is also an implied threat. As in, don't worry i won't lash out at you. It is aggression.

Women normally say things like 'I'm not that fragile' or 'I'll survive' in situations like that. Not give a reminder that they very kindly won't attack you. This time. But you have been put on notice that you had better watch your step. And walk carefully on the arbitrary eggshells.

Oh wow this horrible example reminds me I had something so similar I'd just left my house in the dark to head out for the evening. I was putting my keys in my bag and suddenly realised a man was lurking by the wall. He asked for cash and said something like "don't worry, I wasn't waiting for you to come out of your house or anything". Beyond creepy. And yes I too paid the protection money.