Strange interaction at work yesterday.

[WhatsAppening]

I work in a pub.

A person with obviously male features and clothes came in. This person spoke in a manner that led us to immediately think they had some additional needs. I’m only saying that because I think it’s relevant. They asked for a glass of tap water.

About ten minutes later they asked to use the toilets. My colleague said ‘sure mate, toilets are down there’.

‘I’m actually female’

Oh ok [confused as to the relevance]

‘My pronouns are she/her, I’m transgender’

Nod and smile.

‘Don’t worry though, I don’t get angry when people get it wrong’ this was said in a manner that suggested they would, actually.

More nodding and smiling.

Toilets are still down there love. (they are unisex. We have one room with six closed off cubicles and a shared sink, we hate it but that’s how it is).

Person then used the facilities and left without saying anything else or finishing the glass of water.

The whole interaction felt like a huge trap. I get the impression this person was building up courage to have this conversation based on toilet provision and was trying to be directed to the ladies.

I just felt sad for this person who is obviously troubled and has latched on to this as a way to fit in (or stand out?), but also angry to have been put in that position, it was all just so confrontational and strange. It’s the first time anything like this has happened to me other than from my own blue haired ‘she/they’ teenager. But they were 100% looking for us to challenge them.

It was just…weird.

Not sure why I’m posting really, other than to get it off my mind.

I’ve worked with the public long enough to know that there is a large minority of people who will try to get around rules or push boundaries for no other reason than being awkward, see pps example of people who photograph their ID instead of carrying their actual ID. If self ID becomes legal we’ll see more of these men who will want to use the ladies because “technically” they can.

OP - you know what you saw and heard.

I'm with you.

Let's hope society at large catches onto this quickly for the safety of women and girls.

Do you mean autism or similar?

I do wonder if it’s a way of ‘forcing’ society to acknowledge & notice them, in such a way that they finally feel like they’re the ones ‘holding the cards’. If you have previously felt ignored/a misfit, I can see why it’s appealing, but it is deeply worrying & unsettling for women. The link needs more exploration in my opinion.

That sounds very worrying to me.
I understand there are Transwomen who can't for many reasons present as female but if you are obviously presenting as Male then that seems a very odd response.

I find most people are polite enough to use female Pronouns when talking to me even though I know I am not fooling anybody.

If they don't I always say "its ok I'm not offended I understand it can be confusing" or a more light hearted "it's ok I'm not going to have a meltdown"
I have never said anything about not being angry, it never makes me angry.

I wouldn't ask for the ladies anyway I know it would make anyone in there uncomfortable.

As a pp said, nefarious activity and probably disappointed that they were unisex facilities.

Or looking for an excuse to sue.

@NinjaBreadMan

Imagine a woman ever saying “I won’t get angry.” I smell male-pattern aggression. Nothing says I’m a man like a transwomen angrily asserting that they’re not.

This is so true. And they just as fish don't recognise that water is wet, many transwomen don't seem to recognise stereotypical male aggression in themselves...

@HollowTalk

Well, to me, that sounds like a man wanting to find the women's toilets for nefarious reasons.

But that never happens…

Imagine a woman ever saying “I won’t get angry.” I smell male-pattern aggression. Nothing says I’m a man like a transwomen angrily asserting that they’re not

I dont understand how people can say they just want to get on with their lives then making a big show of being something.

Surely no one caring and being spoken to just like everyone else was the desired goal?

This just seems desperate for attention

Sounds like they were setting you up for a confrontation. And as others say, perhaps a 'practice run'.
Maybe one of you could have said 'Oh, the loos are unisex anyway' to take the wind out of their sails?

Only thing I'd say is using 'mate' and 'love' do both make people more vulnerable to accusations of transphobia – and of old-fashioned sexism/male chauvinism. I'm not saying your colleague is any of those, just that it's a point on which you/colleagues could easily get tripped up.

@Imasoulman

That sounds very worrying to me. I understand there are Transwomen who can't for many reasons present as female but if you are obviously presenting as Male then that seems a very odd response.

I find most people are polite enough to use female Pronouns when talking to me even though I know I am not fooling anybody.

If they don't I always say "its ok I'm not offended I understand it can be confusing" or a more light hearted "it's ok I'm not going to have a meltdown"
I have never said anything about not being angry, it never makes me angry.

I wouldn't ask for the ladies anyway I know it would make anyone in there uncomfortable.

As a pp said, nefarious activity and probably disappointed that they were unisex facilities.

“I’m not going to have a meltdown” sounds threatening to me.

Many of us use female pronouns for male-born people in that situation, not out of politeness, but out of fear.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Imagine a woman ever saying “I won’t get angry.” I smell male-pattern aggression. Nothing says I’m a man like a transwomen angrily asserting that they’re not

I dont understand how people can say they just want to get on with their lives then making a big show of being something.

Surely no one caring and being spoken to just like everyone else was the desired goal?

This just seems desperate for attention

And surely if you disregard women's feelings or opinions and wish to be treated as a woman then you are looking to have your own feelings and opinions disregarded?

Many of us use female pronouns for male-born people in that situation, not out of politeness, but out of fear.

This

And surely if you disregard women's feelings or opinions and wish to be treated as a woman then you are looking to have your own feelings and opinions disregarded?

Yes sexual harassment seems to he desired as part of the validation ritual. However being ignored never goes down well.

And I do wonder how many pay cuts are actively asked for...

@suggestionsplease1

Wow. What a non-story. Person walks into bar, uses toilets and then leaves.

What exciting times for you all.

Or to expand a bit. Person walks into a bar, is concerned that someone using the term 'mate' for them means that they have mis-gendered them, politely corrects them so that they are not directed to the wrong toilets by accident, uses the toilets and leaves.

Funny how that person never showed any intention of paying for anything - eh?

'Mate' is used for males and females. I use it for both, and have it used for me, and I'm mid 50s, from the UK.

I think the last time I used it was for a young girl, she was helping me and I certainly didn't want to offend her, and she didn't seem offended.

“I’m not going to have a meltdown” sounds threatening to me.

It would depend entirely on how it was said. I can imagine it being said with a smile and a laugh which would be absolutely fine. Especially if already familiar with the person saying it. Less of a threat and more poking fun at those who do throw tantrums over such things.

OP's scenario sounds stressful and fairly intimidating. You were lucky to be able to defuse so well.

I get called 'mate' but it seems to be generic around here.

The PPs posit some scenarios. Depending on where you are, yes, it might have been an organised, informal activism 'audit' to see what would happen. It might have been somebody spoiling for a row.

Given the 'asking for a glass of water in a pub/restaurant' is a common exercise in self-assertiveness training, it might even be part of that or a designated "living as a…" exercise.

@suggestionsplease1

Wow. What a non-story. Person walks into bar, uses toilets and then leaves.

What exciting times for you all.

Or to expand a bit. Person walks into a bar, is concerned that someone using the term 'mate' for them means that they have mis-gendered them, politely corrects them so that they are not directed to the wrong toilets by accident, uses the toilets and leaves.

I consider mate to be a gender neutral term used equally for men or women.

Mis-gendering is a load of bollocks.

There are no 'wrong' toilets for males, they use the male ones as toilets are segregated by sex not gender.

It is clear the agenda this person had but was foiled in their attempt as the toilets were unisex.

I am surprised at the asking for a glass of tap water. I would never do that, if fact I would be wary of walking into a pub on my own nowadays. Up to 2 years ago I would have strolled in no worries. But is that a "done" thing now? If I ever needed water in my younger days, I would buy it from the pub - I would never have presumed to ask for it for nothing.

The mum of my.sons classmate has many trans friends on his Facebook page- he asked to spoken of as "mum", which he is, but with male pronouns. So as not to confuse his son, who still calls his mum "mum". He and his friends love, LOVE, "fishing" for the general public to listener them. They regularly have huge raging swearing aggressive debates and tirades if someone dares accidentally says "miss", for example, or "sir". Lots of joyous talks of boycotting, bad reviews etc - it's like a game of "who can we catch out". As the mum put it, it's "Important to root out and work to catch these bigoted people, and change the way they know how to address us".

@YouJustDoYou

The mum of my.sons classmate has many trans friends on his Facebook page- he asked to spoken of as "mum", which he is, but with male pronouns. So as not to confuse his son, who still calls his mum "mum". He and his friends love, LOVE, "fishing" for the general public to listener them. They regularly have huge raging swearing aggressive debates and tirades if someone dares accidentally says "miss", for example, or "sir". Lots of joyous talks of boycotting, bad reviews etc - it's like a game of "who can we catch out". As the mum put it, it's "Important to root out and work to catch these bigoted people, and change the way they know how to address us".

What an absolute tool.

*fishing to misgender

There's no such thing as misgendering. It's called identifying someone by their sex.

I suspect the trans person you met is used to being challenged so is ready for it, rather than trying to trap your pub into a gender incident. Sounds like the interaction went well, and no-one got upset. Well done!