Strange interaction at work yesterday.

[WhatsAppening]

I work in a pub.

A person with obviously male features and clothes came in. This person spoke in a manner that led us to immediately think they had some additional needs. I’m only saying that because I think it’s relevant. They asked for a glass of tap water.

About ten minutes later they asked to use the toilets. My colleague said ‘sure mate, toilets are down there’.

‘I’m actually female’

Oh ok [confused as to the relevance]

‘My pronouns are she/her, I’m transgender’

Nod and smile.

‘Don’t worry though, I don’t get angry when people get it wrong’ this was said in a manner that suggested they would, actually.

More nodding and smiling.

Toilets are still down there love. (they are unisex. We have one room with six closed off cubicles and a shared sink, we hate it but that’s how it is).

Person then used the facilities and left without saying anything else or finishing the glass of water.

The whole interaction felt like a huge trap. I get the impression this person was building up courage to have this conversation based on toilet provision and was trying to be directed to the ladies.

I just felt sad for this person who is obviously troubled and has latched on to this as a way to fit in (or stand out?), but also angry to have been put in that position, it was all just so confrontational and strange. It’s the first time anything like this has happened to me other than from my own blue haired ‘she/they’ teenager. But they were 100% looking for us to challenge them.

It was just…weird.

Not sure why I’m posting really, other than to get it off my mind.

@MishyJDI

I suspect the trans person you met is used to being challenged so is ready for it, rather than trying to trap your pub into a gender incident. Sounds like the interaction went well, and no-one got upset. Well done!

It really doesn't.

Bollocks! He was after a clash and after a litigation experience. Plus a scary toilet encounter for him to enjoy

@MishyJDI

I suspect the trans person you met is used to being challenged so is ready for it, rather than trying to trap your pub into a gender incident. Sounds like the interaction went well, and no-one got upset. Well done!

Not so much ready for it as looking for it. And an individual who is in all relevant senses male SHOULD be challenged when attempting to access female bathrooms.

Mate, Love and Duck all non-gendered terms in parts of the UK I've lived - so I think it was someone looking for a fight.

As a female, I have been called "mate" by a male friend. I did not take offence at all or say anything.

I also call my friends "mate" male and female.

some people just love the drama!

It’s the first time I’ve ever been grateful for the unisex set up.

I’m beginning to wonder now if busy unisex toilets are safer than single sex, since single sex no longer means single sex.

@WhatsAppening

‘I won’t be offended…’ v ‘I won’t get angry’. The latter is a veiled threat.

It is a veiled threat and one that is only effective if you have both physical and structural power (ie are male). If the person making the threat is also self identified as trans there is the additional threat that if they harm you, you will still be somehow seen as guilty by the criminal justice process if you admit that you know they are male. Very difficult situation.

I wouldn't want to be running a pub now. There's going to be more and more of this crap.

@LizzieSiddal

It’s the first time I’ve ever been grateful for the unisex set up.

I’m beginning to wonder now if busy unisex toilets are safer than single sex, since single sex no longer means single sex.

I think unisex toilets might be the way forward. We have them at my Uni and they're great, because it's lots of individual cubicles that contain toilet, sink and dryer, all off a wide, well lit main corridor. If all unisex toilets were like that it'd be ok.

My dd dresses in a masculine way and doesn't wear make up, short hair etc she was recently called 'son' by a doorman. I pointed out she was a girl. I was so irritated that I had to point out her gender just because someone was unable to address her correctly

@Jakadaal

My dd dresses in a masculine way and doesn't wear make up, short hair etc she was recently called 'son' by a doorman. I pointed out she was a girl. I was so irritated that I had to point out her gender just because someone was unable to address her correctly

But why were you so irritated? What does it matter if someone guessed her sex wrong?

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

There's no such thing as misgendering. It's called identifying someone by their sex.

This is the point really, this man may have wanted to be addressed as if he were a female and pointed in the direction of the female loos, but unless the rest of us can mind read then he’s going to be upset a lot and his life is going to be quite frustrating for him.

@Jakadaal

My dd dresses in a masculine way and doesn't wear make up, short hair etc she was recently called 'son' by a doorman. I pointed out she was a girl. I was so irritated that I had to point out her gender just because someone was unable to address her correctly

I'm a short-haired woman and I've been called 'son' more times than I can count. I really don't care. People do make mistakes and accidentally mis-sex people

This movement uses vulnerable people as one way to push its agenda.

It does fascinate me that people find it upsetting to be 'misgendered' or even their babies to be misgendered.
I was called boy/sonny for years. I still get letters to Mr xxx [what horror]
Why would I be so invested in other people's opinions? Why would I care what they think? Its nothing to me.

Anyway, Is the word 'mate' verbatim now. I wish they'd update the list.

When I came to live in this neck of the woods I was surprised to be called "Mate". I use it to unfamiliar men sometimes but I grew up in Oz. Never to women.

Took me ages to realise I was actually being called "Maid".

I think that mystery transwoman was looking for a fight, btw.

@Jakadaal

My dd dresses in a masculine way and doesn't wear make up, short hair etc she was recently called 'son' by a doorman. I pointed out she was a girl. I was so irritated that I had to point out her gender just because someone was unable to address her correctly

And yet she appears to be unbothered by it, or she'd have pointed it out herself... What actual harm could it have possibly done that a random person she'll never see again called her son?

Sorry - going into a pub and having a free glass of water does not give you the right to use the toilets! No one I know would do that unless obviously pregnant and desperate (and they’d just ask nicely and not bother putting the staff to the trouble of getting water in the first place). This entitled person was obviously looking for a fight, and was threatening and rude to boot. Very different from drinking with friends and genuinely needing the loo and saying something like “actually I’m woman, I know, appearances can be deceptive” or some such, (given the stubble, and since women are generally taught to smooth over social awkwardness) when trying to find the right one.

I still struggle to understand why someone who says they’re a woman but is completely male looking would want to use the women’s toilets though. If they’re a trans man, surely they’d want the validation of using the men’s, and not want to upset females in the women’s toilets. If they’re a trans woman, why make no effort at all to look like a woman but focus entirely on where you pee as the fulfilment of the validation for “passing”? It does rather suggest some other motive.

I think unisex toilets might be the way forward. We have them at my Uni and they're great, because it's lots of individual cubicles that contain toilet, sink and dryer, all off a wide, well lit main corridor. If all unisex toilets were like that it'd be ok.

I quite like changing villages - found them easier with kids and even teens of both sexes and just me - of the 4 I've used only one was so badly designed with huge gaps between walls/doors and high floors and low walls making it feel very unsafe -I noticed regualars used the toilets to change but we tend to avoid entire site.

It's that changing village and location with photographs ect that's had the problems that hit the press. I know many on here dislike changing villages because they are so frequently poorly designed.

I like the choice of single sex toilets - why should I not have them because a small minority - like the troubled person in the OP - doesn't want me to have them?

@Jakadaal

My dd dresses in a masculine way and doesn't wear make up, short hair etc she was recently called 'son' by a doorman. I pointed out she was a girl. I was so irritated that I had to point out her gender just because someone was unable to address her correctly

And yet those of us who are butchish lesbians have been called 'mate' and 'son' and told we shouldn't be in the Ladies on numerous occasions — and we don't mind, because we're reasonable people who know that human beings naturally assess sex by clothing, hair and all the other giveaways as a matter of survival. It's an instinct instilled and refined over thousands of years of human existence. Back in prehistory, or the Dark Ages, of the 19th-century, you were always in more danger of attack, assault, robbery or worse if a man approached you. Knowing whether you were being approached by a man or a woman could be a life or death issue.

So blaming a doorman who takes a swift look at you and your daughter and sees a woman with a short-haired, masculine-dressed person and deems them male is a bit ridiculous. It's like dressing up as someone else and then being annoyed at being mistaken for them.

I would just like to point out that our resident TRAs have felt the need to post on this thread about public toilets.

Yet they were curiously silent on the latest WiSpa thread.

The focus is on toilets/bathrooms. Always.

So blaming a doorman who takes a swift look at you and your daughter and sees a woman with a short-haired, masculine-dressed person and deems them male is a bit ridiculous. It's like dressing up as someone else and then being annoyed at being mistaken for them

This is why I think " no one gives a shit" is a valuable lesson to teach our kids ( putting it nicely of course)

People matter to friends and family . The people they are supposed to matter to. That's it. No one else cares what you are buying or whether you are on the mens clothing floor or whatever. I dont think its healthy to indulge such a level of paranoia tbh. People use toilets every day. Literally the only time it stands out is when you use the wrong ones for your sex. That is the only time anyone really notices. Amd eveb then no one gives a crap about your identity . Just your inability to obey social norms of using the facilities that are there for you and not costing the other users their privacy dignity and safety etc.

Its really not kind to pander to this. It does People no favours at all. And is in facts what causes conflicts and drama where there was none to the point that the only conclusion that can he drawn is that its intentional. Because its the one thing that is preventing the peace and normal lives that many claim to be wanting.

You said the colleague is Australian, I'm in Australia and a femaleand despite hating being called mate, most people here do call you mate, male and female

@Helmetbymidnight

It does fascinate me that people find it upsetting to be 'misgendered' or even their babies to be misgendered. I was called boy/sonny for years. I still get letters to Mr xxx [what horror] Why would I be so invested in other people's opinions? Why would I care what they think? Its nothing to me.

Anyway, Is the word 'mate' verbatim now. I wish they'd update the list.

Quite Helmet. Women often get letters addressed to “dear mr xxx” because male is still the default. Somehow we haven’t started threatening ppl or taken to our fainting couches yet….