Strange interaction at work yesterday.

[WhatsAppening]

I work in a pub.

A person with obviously male features and clothes came in. This person spoke in a manner that led us to immediately think they had some additional needs. I’m only saying that because I think it’s relevant. They asked for a glass of tap water.

About ten minutes later they asked to use the toilets. My colleague said ‘sure mate, toilets are down there’.

‘I’m actually female’

Oh ok [confused as to the relevance]

‘My pronouns are she/her, I’m transgender’

Nod and smile.

‘Don’t worry though, I don’t get angry when people get it wrong’ this was said in a manner that suggested they would, actually.

More nodding and smiling.

Toilets are still down there love. (they are unisex. We have one room with six closed off cubicles and a shared sink, we hate it but that’s how it is).

Person then used the facilities and left without saying anything else or finishing the glass of water.

The whole interaction felt like a huge trap. I get the impression this person was building up courage to have this conversation based on toilet provision and was trying to be directed to the ladies.

I just felt sad for this person who is obviously troubled and has latched on to this as a way to fit in (or stand out?), but also angry to have been put in that position, it was all just so confrontational and strange. It’s the first time anything like this has happened to me other than from my own blue haired ‘she/they’ teenager. But they were 100% looking for us to challenge them.

It was just…weird.

Not sure why I’m posting really, other than to get it off my mind.

Person walks into a bar presenting as male, says they’re a woman and says they won’t get angry - completely normal behaviour….

Abd I address ppl of both sexes as mate too

I do hope they suggest a casual extremely non-gendered word to replace mate and love.
Zoip perhaps, or flarb?

Toilets are that way, flarb. Has a nice ring to it.

Just shows you the mess we have allowed ourselves to get into.

@suggestionsplease1

Wow. What a non-story. Person walks into bar, uses toilets and then leaves.

What exciting times for you all.

Or to expand a bit. Person walks into a bar, is concerned that someone using the term 'mate' for them means that they have mis-gendered them, politely corrects them so that they are not directed to the wrong toilets by accident, uses the toilets and leaves.

Or more honestly- a person presenting as a man asks to use the toilets. Member of bar staff used a friendly phrase which fitted the sex of the person in front of them. Person labours the point that they are female, despite that being an untrue statement - a transwoman is not female, they are a member of the male sex, however they identify. And then says that they won't get angry if someone gets it wrong while making it clear that it is clearly not the case.

OP - they were clearly looking for a fight. Some people (no matter their gender identity) are like that and this particular debate gives them an opportunity to do this. They must have been quite disappointed not to get one.

On the plus side, the customer (removing the word paying as only had a tap water) tried to enter through a locked fire exit it would suggest that this male person wasn't there to use the female toilets and not instal hidden cameras.

I use mate all the time for both sexes too.

Tell your colleague to Google Evie Amati.

Sadly I fear that this is why places are switching to unisex toilets. Less chance of anyone (except women of course) having anything to moan about. Who cares if we now have to Wade through rivers of piss to use the loo? As long as nobody gets misgendered.

And yet, OP's post highlights exactly the issue that women are completely reliant on a person's personal integrity for safety in single sex spaces. Because having been told 'I am female' by a person with stubble, OP and their colleague can do nothing to assist a female who might have been using those toilets at the time.

This is not a 'non-story', it is a very real application of the lack of ability to provide an informal level of protection for females in that toilet at the time. It shows the erasure of the informal protections that were the social mores where males would not enter the female toilets.

We just saw how it played in the Wi Spa. The staff there were not in a position to question a male with an erection from getting into a spa less than a metre from a 9 year old. That person turned out to be a sex offender.

Tell us again suggestions just how are females who do need single sex spaces to remain single sex to tell the difference, please?

I think this person has read online about being able to use the women’s toilets and is testing the waters. Probably like a good number of predators will be doing. Lucky for you they were addressed with a neutral term ‘mate’ and your toilet setup did not provide the opportunity for complaint. I’d bet if you went to your nearest pubs this person would have tried the same in there.

Person labours the point that they are female, despite that being an untrue statement - a transwoman is not female, they are a member of the male sex, however they identify. And then says that they won't get angry if someone gets it wrong while making it clear that it is clearly not the case.

Unfortunately by conceding the word ‘woman’ (not that I ever did, but society appears to have done so) the next land grab is for ‘female’. Give an inch and they’ll take a mile.

We just saw how it played in the Wi Spa. The staff there were not in a position to question a male with an erection from getting into a spa less than a metre from a 9 year old. That person turned out to be a sex offender.. But surely “that never happens”. Oh, it did?! Well it is vanishingly rare and we should all put up with it to avoid hurting men’s anyone’s feelings.

The ' I won't get angry' comment is veiled aggression and, unfortunately for them, would only serve to confirm my impression of the person as male.

@suggestionsplease1

Wow. What a non-story. Person walks into bar, uses toilets and then leaves.

What exciting times for you all.

Or to expand a bit. Person walks into a bar, is concerned that someone using the term 'mate' for them means that they have mis-gendered them, politely corrects them so that they are not directed to the wrong toilets by accident, uses the toilets and leaves.

Nice try but no.

Someone (man) walks into a bar, doesn't buy a drink. Asks for toilets and is directed...claims to be a woman, makes vaguely threatening comments, uses toilets and leaves.

I think this person has read online about being able to use the women’s toilets and is testing the waters.

That was my reaction too, and from his perspective stage 1 went pretty well, didn’t it?

Wow. What a non-story.

And yet, here you are, commenting on the apparent non-story.

I think your gut feeling that there's something off about this interaction is spot on.
It's impossible to say what the motives of this person was, but somehow it doesn't really seem to be about being thirsty does it?
There's definitely an air of confrontation and veiled threat.

@TheHouseIsOnFire

Person labours the point that they are female, despite that being an untrue statement - a transwoman is not female, they are a member of the male sex, however they identify. And then says that they won't get angry if someone gets it wrong while making it clear that it is clearly not the case.

Unfortunately by conceding the word ‘woman’ (not that I ever did, but society appears to have done so) the next land grab is for ‘female’. Give an inch and they’ll take a mile.

Sadly, I think you are right. We've seen TRAs on this board who believe that human beings can literally change sex so I can see that being the next big push.

It’s the first time I’ve ever been grateful for the unisex set up.

I really don’t know how I would have responded had he asked to use the ladies. I mean, there weren’t actually any women in the pub at this point other than myself (we don’t have separate staff loos, either) but I’m not sure I would have responded positively and the interaction would have been very different.

That said, we do have a regular who is an obvious TW, she comes in with her girlfriend and is lovely. She has never once asked to be treated differently, and I once said ‘hi guys’ to them both and immediately cringed (I would and do say that to couples or groups of any sex) in case she was offended but she didn’t react.

'They asked for a glass of tap water.

About ten minutes later they asked to use the toilets. My colleague said ‘sure mate, toilets are down there’.

And honestly, the answer to a non paying customer asking where the toilets were in most pubs wouldn't have been ‘sure mate, toilets are down there’, it would have been 'they are for paying customers only. What drink would you like to buy?'

The fact the person only ordered tap water and sat there for a while just reinforces my view that they were looking for a fight.

What made you think he had learning difficulties, OP?

politely corrects them so that they are not directed to the wrong toilets by accident

The wrong toilets in this case would be female (women's) toilets - their sex was male so they should use the male toilets. Instead they lied and made veiled threats in order to access female spaces obviously with no regard for any women who might be using them.

Yup, step 2, find pub with separate toilets and gain an OK from bar staff. Step 3, use unstaffed public toilets and if challenged cite use of pub toilets.

Personally, in a situation where I felt anxious or vulnerable among strangers, I’d never think of calling attention to the fact that I’m female. I'd likely avoid it. If someone thought I was a man, called me mate, and pointed me to an actual men’s toilet, I’d probably just say thanks and then wait til they were gone to quietly find the women’s without saying anything.

But this is a problem with self-ID: someone presenting as a stereotypical man can walk into the ladies' toilet (if they can find one!) and everyone is supposed to assume that must be a woman. An individual CAN retain all of the original structural advantages of being male while also accessing the compensatory benefits set aside for women. The opposite doesn't work: if someone with a traditionally female body and presentation and walks into the mens' room, they lose the compensatory benefits and don't acquire the original structural ones.

@Realyorkshiretea

What made you think he had learning difficulties, OP?

Just his mannerisms and the way he spoke. I have several relatives with LDs and it was familiar.

Someone looking for a fight.

@suggestionsplease1

Wow. What a non-story. Person walks into bar, uses toilets and then leaves.

What exciting times for you all.

Or to expand a bit. Person walks into a bar, is concerned that someone using the term 'mate' for them means that they have mis-gendered them, politely corrects them so that they are not directed to the wrong toilets by accident, uses the toilets and leaves.

Yeah... that's so not how I read it.