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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The look at me of pronouns

461 replies

Ritascornershop · 01/09/2021 18:14

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant.

The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”.

I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions.

Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 11/09/2021 00:18

I was consciously trying to describe the situation in a purely factual and objective way, without presupposing the meaning of terms like ‘woman’. I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.

Are you an adult female human? If so, you're a woman. That's about as factual and objective as it gets.

Helen8220 · 11/09/2021 00:55

@OnlyTheLangOfTheTitberg
TBscrupulouslyF to Helen8220, she did say she would only ‘challenge’ if the person volunteered a reason why they didn’t agree with using preferred pronouns, not if they simply said “no thank you” or similar. I don’t necessarily agree that said challenge would be appropriate, but I don’t think a pile-on on the false premise that she’d take anyone to task for not using such pronouns themselves full stop is appropriate either.

Belated thanks for this

Helen8220 · 11/09/2021 01:03

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
This is a very coherent reply. For me, though, this just introduces more challenge. I am used to being described as a woman, but I do not wish to imply that in 'preferring' the pronoun woman I also feel that the cultural and societal bias that you feel you have. For me, this is not an identity that fits. If stating a preferred pronoun is a pronouncement such as the one you feel you are making, I am not happy to make that pronouncement. Even if I mean it differently, I think people might well interpret it as you say. Perhaps those people who feel they have been unable to not absorb these stereotypes, or believe that have absorbed them in a way significant enough to identify with them, can state their pronouns and those of us who relate to them differently (perhaps see them as something which should be obliterated rather than lived with) can not be pressurized to 'state our preferred pronouns' given that is inevitably suggesting a relationship with those stereotypes which people who don't wish to state their pronouns don't have.

That sounds like a very fair and reasonable position. I don’t think stating preferred pronouns necessarily indicates the extent to which a person complies or feels comfortable with gender norms, but I appreciate that’s a reason why someone might not want to do it.

FrancescaContini · 11/09/2021 07:40

[quote Helen8220]@HipTightOnions

it’s interesting how tentative you are in suggesting you are female

You are similarly tentative about other people, for example whether they are likely to have been recorded at birth as male or female not “whether they are male or female”.

Do you even accept that people can be a sex, or is it just about how other people perceive them?

I was consciously trying to describe the situation in a purely factual and objective way, without presupposing the meaning of terms like ‘woman’. I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.[/quote]
Being a woman isn’t a culmination of anything, and it doesn’t “follow inevitably” from your chromosomes - you ARE a woman. It’s a fact. It’s not an opinion/ judgement/criticism/point of view - it’s a FACT, in the same way that the earth revolves around the sun - a FACT, not an opinion.

Thank you for returning to this thread. I’d be really grateful if you could reply to my previous post regarding your use of language.

merrymouse · 11/09/2021 09:03

I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes

It’s 1924. A 25 year older woman says that ‘because of a culmination of events’ she isn’t a woman so should be able to vote. Does it work?

It’s 1964. A woman has been raped and tells herself that because of a culmination of events she isn’t a woman and so can’t possibly be pregnant. Does it work?

It’s 2003. A woman receives a diagnosis of ovarian cancer. Surely she might be cured if a culmination of events can mean that she isn’t a woman?

It’s 2021. A woman in Afghanistan insists that because of a culmination of events she is actually a man and should be able to travel unaccompanied. Is she believed?

Do you see how little any of this is linked to identity? Do you see why we need language to talk about material realities?

In contrast you are talking about an identity that you personally feel is more masculine or feminine because of cultural stereotypes. It feels as though you are sharing your star sign.

KittenKong · 11/09/2021 09:03

I prefer Chinese astrological signs myself...

Datun · 11/09/2021 09:14

I am a woman, on pretty much any definition,

Pretty much? On which definition are you not a woman, Helen?

Deliriumoftheendless · 11/09/2021 09:19

@KittenKong

I prefer Chinese astrological signs myself...
Me too, especially as it proves my ex (year of the rooster) is a cock.
donquixotedelamancha · 11/09/2021 09:19

I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.

That is a wonderfully cryptic answer. I'm really curious what events and what the various definitions are.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2021 09:22

Great post, merrymouse.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2021 09:32

Well I guess it's a culmination of being born female (a member of the sex which can produce ova) and growing up as a girl. Unfortunately many girls in the global south never reach maturity, such as in places where they are killed for their sex because no one understood that they might not have culminated in being a woman, but a man.

www.e-ir.info/2016/09/09/why-infanticide-happens-almost-exclusively-to-girls-and-not-boys/

Enjoy your luxury beliefs, Helen and be glad you grew up somewhere you could pontificate about your identity beliefs to your heart's content.

Datun · 11/09/2021 09:49

@donquixotedelamancha

I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.

That is a wonderfully cryptic answer. I'm really curious what events and what the various definitions are.

Me too. What is 'pretty much any definition'? It implies there are several definitions. The mind boggles.
Nellodee · 11/09/2021 09:57

I've yet to see a gender based definition of woman other than "a lublub is anyone who feels they are a lublub".

Seems to me this only works if they also believe "a definition is anything that feels it is a definition."

Sunndown · 11/09/2021 10:00

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Well I guess it's a culmination of being born female (a member of the sex which can produce ova) and growing up as a girl. Unfortunately many girls in the global south never reach maturity, such as in places where they are killed for their sex because no one understood that they might not have culminated in being a woman, but a man.

www.e-ir.info/2016/09/09/why-infanticide-happens-almost-exclusively-to-girls-and-not-boys/

Enjoy your luxury beliefs, Helen and be glad you grew up somewhere you could pontificate about your identity beliefs to your heart's content.

I disagree with the "growing up as a girl" part. Girls who are brought up as boys (eg I believe there was a tradition of doing that in Afghanistan up to the age of puberty, when there were no boys in a family) aren't boys and don't become men. They may come across as being boys and may feel that they are masculine and be good at doing things traditionally only done by boys in that culture, but they're not men, obviously. One of the many weird things about TA beliefs is that someone who "feels like" / identifies as a woman in the United States, say, may not do so if they move to Japan, where the expectations and stereotypes are very different. So presumably on moving to Japan they change gender. Would some argue that they change sex too?
Helleofabore · 11/09/2021 10:02

@merrymouse

I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes

It’s 1924. A 25 year older woman says that ‘because of a culmination of events’ she isn’t a woman so should be able to vote. Does it work?

It’s 1964. A woman has been raped and tells herself that because of a culmination of events she isn’t a woman and so can’t possibly be pregnant. Does it work?

It’s 2003. A woman receives a diagnosis of ovarian cancer. Surely she might be cured if a culmination of events can mean that she isn’t a woman?

It’s 2021. A woman in Afghanistan insists that because of a culmination of events she is actually a man and should be able to travel unaccompanied. Is she believed?

Do you see how little any of this is linked to identity? Do you see why we need language to talk about material realities?

In contrast you are talking about an identity that you personally feel is more masculine or feminine because of cultural stereotypes. It feels as though you are sharing your star sign.

This.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/09/2021 10:06

I disagree with the "growing up as a girl" part. Girls who are brought up as boys (eg I believe there was a tradition of doing that in Afghanistan up to the age of puberty, when there were no boys in a family) aren't boys and don't become men. They may come across as being boys and may feel that they are masculine and be good at doing things traditionally only done by boys in that culture, but they're not men, obviously.

I'm not saying being a girl is based on stereotypes and traditional expectations, of course that is growing up as a girl. I simply mean they are female children who grow to adulthood, to become women.

KittenKong · 11/09/2021 10:08

You may be treaded ‘like’ a boy as far as that can go (as my sister was) but that didn’t change the fact that she was/is a girl/woman.

EyesOpening · 11/09/2021 12:10

The culmination of events being: having XX chromosomes at conception, making it to term, surviving birth, staying alive for enough years to reach adulthood.

KittenKong · 11/09/2021 12:11

Maybe my pronouns should be XX/XX. Hmmmmm.

Helen8220 · 12/09/2021 12:54

@FrancescaContini

you say you are a lawyer so you’re a reasonably intelligent person, yes? So you do know that there’s no need to use the word “likely” in the sentence I have just quoted. A baby is born, the sex is immediately obvious (I’m not talking about a minuscule percentage of cases where it isn’t obvious) - girl or boy? That’s it. It’s noted every time a baby is born. In the days before 20-week scans, it would have been the first question asked by the mother immediately after delivery - is it a boy or girl? It’s pretty much - health concerns aside - the first question that the wider family and friends ask. And you know this, don’t you?? So stop your faux naivety - it’s doing your (presumed from your professional status) intelligence a huge disservice.

On the first point (about my use of ‘likely’, and my being a lawyer) - my profession is part of the reason I’m so precise in my use of language. As you mention, there are a very small number of cases where - due to intersex variations - a baby’s sex cannot be determined on the basis of their external sex organs at birth, or where it is later discovered that their internal sex organs and/or chromosomes do not align with their external sex organs. I have a colleague who was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl, and only found out in her 20s that she had XY chromosomes (she had been told in her teens, when she didn’t start menstruating, that she had a ‘condition’ which meant her uterus and ovaries weren’t fully formed and had to be removed and she would have to take HRT for life- but they didn’t tell her it was because she was intersex).

And before everyone jumps on me and says I shouldn’t be bringing intersex people into this debate - my colleague is entirely happy for her case to be used to illustrate that the application of biological sex categories isn’t clear cut in every case. She considers her situation to be comparable in many ways to that of a trans woman.

On the second point, about the first question people ask about a baby being whether it’s a girl or a boy - this sort of gets to the heart of my feelings on sex and gender. Apart from the fact that there’s generally not a lot else to say/ask about a baby when it’s first born, I think the reason people ask this question is more about the social categories of girl/boy and woman/man than it is about wanting to know the nature of the baby’s sex organs or chromosomes - people generally want to know whether to start buying pink clothes and flowery dresses, or blue outfits with dinosaurs on; they want (perhaps not consciously) to start imagining and making assumption about the sort of person the baby is going to become - what their personality will be like, what they’ll enjoy, who they might (eventually) be attracted to.

If I had a baby I’d be very tempted to give them a gender neutral name, refer to them as ‘they’ and refuse to tell anyone their sex, other than those directly involved in my baby’s care who needed to know for healthcare reasons - so that people wouldn’t be able to treat my child in accordance with their conscious and unconscious gender biases and expectations. I probably wouldn’t do it in practice just because of the risk it would mess them up because people would treat them awkwardly, and they’d have problems fitting in.

merrymouse · 12/09/2021 13:00

I think the reason people ask this question is more about the social categories of girl/boy and woman/man than it is about wanting to know the nature of the baby’s sex organs or chromosomes - people generally want to know whether to start buying pink clothes and flowery dresses, or blue outfits with dinosaurs on; they want (perhaps not consciously) to start imagining and making assumption about the sort of person the baby is going to become - what their personality will be like, what they’ll enjoy, who they might (eventually) be attracted to

And that, in a nut shell is gender identity ideology. The insistence that individuals must be categorised according to the extent with which they identify with social and cultural expectations linked to sex.

It is generally recognised that this kind of stereotyping is wrong in all other situations, yet somehow people think it’s progressive when applied to gender.

The only reason can be societal acceptance and endorsement of sexism.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 12/09/2021 13:29

I was consciously trying to describe the situation in a purely factual and objective way, without presupposing the meaning of terms like ‘woman’. I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.

But an objective and factual definition of the word 'woman' is an adult human female:
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman

It is not OK to change the definition to suit one's own purposes and especially it is then not OK to assume that others are using your definition. Gender ideology has not even made an attempt to define woman in any objective or factual way. If it does become, by majority vote, a word which no longer means 'adult human female' but rather means 'people who have internalised societal expectations related to physical characteristics expressed due to chromosomal make up' then there are not many 'women' in the world and we'd need to come up with a new term to describe 'adult human female', which is clearly more than a little ridiculous.

You say you want to be objective, but you don't seem to understand that you're not being objective. You are telling us about your own assumptions and you are naively assuming those are also other people's assumptions. The problem here is that you are not willing to accept that the ideas you have about why other people ask what sex a baby is may not be correct. This may be why you ask, but that does not mean that's the case for everyone else. The same principle applies to your explanation of why you are willing to call yourself a woman. You have internalised societal expectations even though you know they are a social construction. It's good to know your rationale here but it is completely at odds with mine. I am a woman as I am an adult human female and there is, literally, nothing else to that. I may have internalised some societal and other expectations, but some of those expectations which arose in my family, are not of the type traditional associated with females. So, for me, this process is irrelevant to my being a woman.

Your gender ideology is based on your own assumptions which I think are niche. That certainly seems to be the case on this thread. There is no research to prove that it's a niche view but there is also no research to suggest that the majority of people, specifically the majority of women, want to use the word 'woman' in an entirely different way to how we've been using it since the dawn of language. Such research is the kind of objective facts we need. Your call for objectivity is good. But trying to present your current argument as objective is far from helpful.

Helen8220 · 13/09/2021 23:05

@merrymouse
And that, in a nut shell is gender identity ideology. The insistence that individuals must be categorised according to the extent with which they identify with social and cultural expectations linked to sex.

It is generally recognised that this kind of stereotyping is wrong in all other situations, yet somehow people think it’s progressive when applied to gender.

The only reason can be societal acceptance and endorsement of sexism.

It seems you may have misunderstood my point. @FrancescaContini pointed out how much importance people put on finding out a baby’s sex as soon as it’s born (or earlier), in connection with making an argument about the importance/concrete nature of sex. My point in response was that I don’t think most people when they ask whether a baby is a boy or a girl are primarily interested in its sex (if that means purely its biology) - they want to know (or make assumptions about) what sort of person it will be.

I was obviously not saying that’s a good thing. I’m saying it’s a reality you can’t ignore when trying to understand why some people feel very strongly like they are the opposite sex/gender (rather than that they are just radically gender non-conforming).

Helen8220 · 13/09/2021 23:36

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
But an objective and factual definition of the word 'woman' is an adult human female:
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman

That is one definition, which works in many contexts, but I don’t think it captures all of the ways in which people actually use and mean the word ‘woman’.

It is not OK to change the definition to suit one's own purposes and especially it is then not OK to assume that others are using your definition. Gender ideology has not even made an attempt to define woman in any objective or factual way. If it does become, by majority vote, a word which no longer means 'adult human female' but rather means 'people who have internalised societal expectations related to physical characteristics expressed due to chromosomal make up' then there are not many 'women' in the world and we'd need to come up with a new term to describe 'adult human female', which is clearly more than a little ridiculous.

I didn’t attempt to offer any definition of ‘woman’ or ‘man’. I don’t think there are single, concrete definitions that cover all of the facets of those concepts (as is the case for many words and concepts). When I said I was using language objectively I meant I was avoiding using the terms we are arguing about (man, woman, female and male), and instead describing the underlying factual circumstances to avoid getting into issues about definitions.

Do you really think that there are not many women in the world who have internalised societal expectations about what it means to appear ‘feminine’ - do you know how much money is spent every year on cosmetics and cosmetic surgery by women (compared to that spent by men)?

You say you want to be objective, but you don't seem to understand that you're not being objective. You are telling us about your own assumptions and you are naively assuming those are also other people's assumptions. The problem here is that you are not willing to accept that the ideas you have about why other people ask what sex a baby is may not be correct. This may be why you ask, but that does not mean that's the case for everyone else. The same principle applies to your explanation of why you are willing to call yourself a woman. You have internalised societal expectations even though you know they are a social construction. It's good to know your rationale here but it is completely at odds with mine. I am a woman as I am an adult human female and there is, literally, nothing else to that. I may have internalised some societal and other expectations, but some of those expectations which arose in my family, are not of the type traditional associated with females. So, for me, this process is irrelevant to my being a woman.

I wasn’t claiming to be objective - I honestly don’t think any of us is being objective on this subject! Just that I was using language in an objectively accurate way in that particular instance.

I should make clear that I am absolutely not someone who asks the sex of a baby in order to make assumptions about its personality or whether to buy pink or blue clothes. I ask the sex of the baby because it’s one of the few things to say once you’ve established the baby is healthy. And so that I can go out and buy the most gender non-conforming clothes and presents I can find for it. I am passionate about challenging gender-based assumptions and stereotypes, and often pull people up if they make generalisations about women or men, or girls and boys.

Your gender ideology is based on your own assumptions which I think are niche. That certainly seems to be the case on this thread. There is no research to prove that it's a niche view but there is also no research to suggest that the majority of people, specifically the majority of women, want to use the word 'woman' in an entirely different way to how we've been using it since the dawn of language. Such research is the kind of objective facts we need. Your call for objectivity is good. But trying to present your current argument as objective is far from helpful.

On the point about how terms have been used since the dawn of language - surely for much of the history of the word ‘woman’ it has been inexorably bound up with generally accepted (though obviously false) beliefs about the differences between men and women - in terms of capabilities, intelligence, personality and social roles. While I 100% agree that we should all fight to continue to break down those associations, I also think it’s naive to believe that the majority of people are using the words woman and man in a purely biological sense, free from that immense history of other meanings.

EarthSight · 13/09/2021 23:43

Wow this thread is still going?

Helen, kudos to you for your persistence, patience, and willingess to respond to multiple people, but we're just not going to accept pronouns like this until people come up with better arguments. Big fucking NO.

If you want to use pronouns, go ahead, be we're not going to. I think my own reasons are perfectly valid and people should respect them without massively overstepping their ideological authority in the workplace, and not have the cheek to go but whyyyy or #bekind (you meanie old bitch). Sorry, I added that last bit because it's so often what people really mean when they try to challenge women on this.

I'm not sure if it was your intention as I think you've mainly been responding to questions, but I don't think you've been successful in persuading anyone here :/ I understand that would naturally rebuke someone for open mockery of something that's important to them, how you wouldn't want that to cause distress or an unpleasant environment, but you know what comes to mind when I think about someone asking me about my non-pronoun compliance, and then seeking to have a discussion with me about it? It's basically a few steps away from this -

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