The look at me of pronouns

[Ritascornershop]

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant.

The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”.

I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions.

Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

They have no gendered pronouns in Indonesia. Do you think that means there is no sexism?

And Iran. I’m often called ‘he’ - and readers, I have not died yet.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Those types of meetings tend to have a higher than average proportion of people attending who you couldn’t reliably guess their pronouns.

Oh I bet you could reliably guess their sex.

😁

@Ereshkigalangcleg

because surveys show they are more likely to face discrimination now than gay or lesbian colleagues.

In what sense? What is this discrimination that they face that isn't for being same sex attracted as part of their sexuality? And what discrimination do "non binary" people face, exactly?

Yes I'd love to know the answer to that too.

In my workplace I don’t think it’s really an issue - women are over represented at most levels, and equally represented at the top level (and in fact our top person is a woman), and reports of sex/gender based discrimination are low.

Good for you. Perhaps you are aware that there are other workplaces?

I'm lucky enough to own my own business so this bs is my decision and I don't wish to add my pronouns, so won't.

Om the other hand, people who call wanting the owner frequently ask for Mr Innocent. I haven't died yet, I simply correct them.

Far preferable to the obnoxious twat who called me "my good woman". I debated telling him I identify as male for a moment but couldn't be bothered. Decided on "fuck off " instead.

@Helen8220

Well luckily I work in an organisation that thinks it’s important to foster an inclusive environment for everyone, and people involved in the networks (LGBT+, gender, race, disability and others) work very hard - often in their personal time - organising events that help people to understand the experiences of those who are different from them.

What kind of events does the network supporting women* put on? I’m looking for some ideas for my own workplace.

*for the avoidance of confusion I’m referring to born women, who are often discriminated against on the basis of their sex, which is a protected characteristic under the EA2010 - unlike gender identity.

I wonder if they have access for those with disabilities. Do they provide BSL translators or have adapted computers for those with sight problems. Do they allow days off for women if they have crippling periods, or compassion leave should they miscarry? Do they allow flexible working patterns for those who have family responsibilities (children or elders?).

Do they do any of the above - which lets face or, isn’t as pretty as a rainbow flag or small cute child with face paint and costs money?

THIS is inclusion - it helps people work. I don’t give two hoots what anyone’s sexual orientation, religion or show size is. If they can do the job then that’s fine. It’s what they are there for. It’s not a crèche.

What kind of events does the network supporting women put on? I’m looking for some ideas for my own workplace.*

*for the avoidance of confusion I’m referring to born women, who are often discriminated against on the basis of their sex, which is a protected characteristic under the EA2010 - unlike gender identity.

The gender network (which supports all staff on issues relating to sex and gender) had organised events on confidence building aimed primarily at women, in light of evidence that women on average tend to feel less confident in interviews, asking for promotions, challenging inappropriate behaviour in the workplace. Events on flexible working and balancing child care and work (some focused on women, some focused on men - there have been some really interesting panel discussions on experiences of shared parental leave). Informal discussions in the wake of the murder of Sarah Everard, about the emotional impact of the incident and our own experiences of feeling or being unsafe, and what more men could do to help.

Oh yes, and a really interesting talk on endometriosis and adenomyosis, including experiences of how supportive (or not) managers and the organisation generally have been regarding the need for time off

Thank you, some helpful ideas there (although we don’t conflate our own women’s network with ‘gender’, except when discussing how gender stereotypes disadvantage us and how we can overcome them).

I wonder if they have access for those with disabilities. Do they provide BSL translators or have adapted computers for those with sight problems. Do they allow days off for women if they have crippling periods, or compassion leave should they miscarry? Do they allow flexible working patterns for those who have family responsibilities (children or elders?).

Absolutely - I don’t think the organisation is perfect by any means, but I’m aware of a number of colleagues who have specific arrangements due to disabilities such as partial blindness or neurological differences. In my personal experience they have always been supportive when I’ve needed time off for gynaecological problems or other things, like mental health issues

And I believe there is a pretty good support system in place for those with caring responsibilities - loads of my colleagues work flexibly due to child care or other caring responsibilities, and during lockdown it was made very clear that it was understood those home schooling would need additional flexibility and time off to enable that.

I don’t think it’s an either/or between providing practical support in relation to all of the many differences and needs that staff might have, and more broadly fostering a culture of inclusion and understanding of difference - they go hand in hand.

@Helen8220

Pronouns are sex based not ‘gender’

Why do you think that? I can’t see any reason why the nature of my chromosomes or genitals should necessitate people referring to me in a particular way.

Because language is important @helen8220? Because being able to accurately name something is important? Especially for women. Do you think it's humane to make a victim of rape caller her rapist 'she' in court, when she can see with her own eyes, and has experienced the biology of her oppressor first hand in the most visceral way one could experience it?

If you do have she/her on your email signature, why? Why are you 'she/her'?

So many places pay lip service to inclusion and go full tilt down stonewall route.

As I’ve said before. I don’t give two hoots if you are gay or straight - it doesn’t have any bearing on your work does it?
Think you have a gender? - well good for you, do your job.
Want to wear ‘opposite sexy’ clothing - well as long as it’s appropriate to the rest of the office (so no boob tubes or frilly baby-doll frocks in the boardroom please).
Want to discuss your sexual activities/kinks/? No thanks - keep that for your pals outside of work. I just work with you (because I have to pay my bills).
Want to spend office hours planning the next stonewall fund raising coffee morning? When’s the BNP one then? Because that’s just as unnerving to me.

Want to have unisex loos? whoa there nelly!

@Helen8220

I don’t think it’s an either/or between providing practical support in relation to all of the many differences and needs that staff might have, and more broadly fostering a culture of inclusion and understanding of difference - they go hand in hand.

@Helen8220 The problem with that is that by saying you are fostering a culture of inclusion, the logical next step for many would be to see those who refuse to include pronouns as being fostering a culture of exclusion . You may be the exception in this, but that is how many people see women who refuse to go along with this, and more pressure is put on women to do it. Why might that be, I wonder?? Could it be that women are seen as easier to push around and that they are expected to conform to gender stereotypes? Stereotypes that you are promoting by using ideological pronouns in this way, instead of biology based ones. Stereotypes which say that if you are 'she', you are expected to conform more, to be more caring, to be more 'inclusive' to sacrifice yourself for others, to not be 'difficult' to be an accepting universal mother figure for absolutely everyone in society.

I do you hope you will be vocally sticking up for those women in your workplace.

@Helen8220 Also, I do find it interesting to see who you are choosing to be inclusive here.

Do you think you are being inclusive to butch women who may be really tired of people now asking for their pronouns all the time, of being made to feel like they're not really women because people are questioning their pronouns in a way they clearly wouldn't do as often for other women who are gender conforming? Can you not see how insulting it would be for them that you wouldn't find it their preferred pronouns to be obvious?

Because language is important @helen8220? Because being able to accurately name something is important? Especially for women. Do you think it's humane to make a victim of rape caller her rapist 'she' in court, when she can see with her own eyes, and has experienced the biology of her oppressor first hand in the most visceral way one could experience it?

If you do have she/her on your email signature, why? Why are you 'she/her'?

I completely agree that language is important, and that we need a way to refer to the category of people who have xx chromosomes (or were born with predominantly female biological characteristics but due to intersex variations do not have xx chromosomes). But why do we need a system of language that makes it difficult to talk about a person - in any context, whether or not their sex/gender is relevant to the matter in question - without referencing their sex/gender? People on this thread have suggested that reminding the person you’re emailing that you’re a woman by including female pronouns in your signature may increase the likelihood of being treated differently (less favourably), and doesn’t think apply to social interactions more generally? If you have to be reminded of a person’s sex/gender in order to refer to them at all, isn’t that likely to exacerbate the extent to which unconscious biases are brought to bear?

On the question of victims of sexual assault by perpetrators who prefer female pronouns, I honestly don’t know what the right thing is.

I state my preferred pronouns in my email signature simply because I understand, from listening to trans and non-binary people, that this makes it easier for them to do the same, which in turn makes their interactions easier and less stressful.

How many people are we talking about here. The % is minuscule. Why is this one topic so damned important?

I deal with a contact who is deaf. He has in his email footer relevant info about how to contact him and the fact that he is deaf. This is useful. And in a business setting, relevant. Ditto when people work part time.

If you have to be reminded of a person’s sex/gender in order to refer to them at all, isn’t that likely to exacerbate the extent to which unconscious biases are brought to bear?

Essentially you seem to be suggesting that everyone's pronouns should be non sexed. No she/her, no he/him but everyone should have non-binary pronouns in order that sex and/or gender is not involved at all. Do you do that in your own pronoun signature? As a pp has asked, if your pronouns are she/her, why have you chosen to do that?

And yet when I see pronouns in an email, I instantly feel that the person using them believes trans women are literal women with all that that entails ie the removal of women’s sex based rights, the removal of women only sports,being ok with trans women in prisons or refuges

Or that they haven’t beyond be kind

Now that may not of course be what that person wants to signal but that is how I feel when I see pronouns in emails

And so funnily enough I feel very much not “included”

@Helen8220

Because language is important @helen8220? Because being able to accurately name something is important? Especially for women. Do you think it's humane to make a victim of rape caller her rapist 'she' in court, when she can see with her own eyes, and has experienced the biology of her oppressor first hand in the most visceral way one could experience it?

If you do have she/her on your email signature, why? Why are you 'she/her'?

I completely agree that language is important, and that we need a way to refer to the category of people who have xx chromosomes (or were born with predominantly female biological characteristics but due to intersex variations do not have xx chromosomes). But why do we need a system of language that makes it difficult to talk about a person - in any context, whether or not their sex/gender is relevant to the matter in question - without referencing their sex/gender? People on this thread have suggested that reminding the person you’re emailing that you’re a woman by including female pronouns in your signature may increase the likelihood of being treated differently (less favourably), and doesn’t think apply to social interactions more generally? If you have to be reminded of a person’s sex/gender in order to refer to them at all, isn’t that likely to exacerbate the extent to which unconscious biases are brought to bear?

On the question of victims of sexual assault by perpetrators who prefer female pronouns, I honestly don’t know what the right thing is.

I state my preferred pronouns in my email signature simply because I understand, from listening to trans and non-binary people, that this makes it easier for them to do the same, which in turn makes their interactions easier and less stressful.

So you don't think that women should have a preference about whether or not they signal their sex, because you don't think anyone should be treated differently to anyone else based on it, but trans people doing it you completely agree with, and that's why you do it too?

Have I got that right?

On the question of victims of sexual assault by perpetrators who prefer female pronouns, I honestly don’t know what the right thing is.

I find this statement a bit worrying, as to me it seems really easy to say what's right in that situation.

Do you think the rapist's preference should come before the right of the victim to speak the truth? She was not raped by a woman - why should she have to lie to make a violent criminal more comfortable? To me it seems the court is allowing the rapist to abuse and control their victim through the court process.

What's your view on why it could be okay?

@EarthSight
Do you think you are being inclusive to butch women who may be really tired of people now asking for their pronouns all the time, of being made to feel like they're not really women because people are questioning their pronouns in a way they clearly wouldn't do as often for other women who are gender conforming? Can you not see how insulting it would be for them that you wouldn't find it their preferred pronouns to be obvious?

I don’t think a person should be asked specifically for their pronouns, unless it’s in a context where everyone is being asked for their pronouns regardless of how they present. If I met a person who presented in a gender-neutral way and I needed to refer to them using third person pronouns, and they hadn’t indicated preferred pronouns, I would use the pronouns that reflected whatever I believed their biological sex to be. If I was really unsure of their sex I would probably just avoid using pronouns until I received a prompt from them or someone else who already knew them.

I’d just call them John or Mary. Their reality won’t necessarily be my reality and life is too short to pussy foot around to try to second guess people - or for that matter tie yourself up making sure that you don’t mortally offend someone. I have a hard enough time remembering people’s names or what I ate for breakfast.