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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A BBC journalist approached Glinner and said “They’re all old aren’t they? Young women disagree with you.”

116 replies

TedImgoingmad · 31/08/2021 22:20

This is Glinner posting his experience outside Marion Millar's court case. He has - most courteously - not named the BBC journalist who stated this - who appears to have forgotten their status as paid for by the public purse and therefore supposedly neutral.

This misogyny of the BBC journalist astounds me. I wonder how many of these old bats (i.e., women over 40) they refer to are the ones who do the family admin/earn the money that means the licence fee gets paid.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/one-step-closer-to-hell

OP posts:
GeorgeMichaelBluth · 01/09/2021 16:42

Early 30s here and firmly GC.

TedImgoingmad · 01/09/2021 16:47

@Mollyollydolly

Ageism is a massive problem. When I first worked for The BBC in the 1980s they were hand wringing about how to attract a younger audience. Were still hand wringing about it when I left last year. They always fail to recognise their older, loyal viewers and take them for granted. they also fail to recognise that the younger viewers get older and .. change with life experience. It's nothing new but depressing nonetheless.
Saw Danny Kelly, a former BBC broadcaster, on GB news earlier today. He said similar.

He does not think the BBC should be defunded, but clearly thinks the institute is ageist and very focussed on its "worldwide reputation". He was a Midlands region radio presenter, and was told by his bosses there not to put on 70+ year old listeners, because they didn't want the station to "feel old". He thinks the BBC is very worried about the younger generation of licence fee payers and keeping them interested.

OP posts:
GeorgiaMcGraw · 01/09/2021 17:16

I can't stand the idea that we shouldn't listen to middle-aged and older women. It's ridiculous and makes no sense. I'm 29. I used to be a full on TWAW type but started seeing the dangers in it around 25, I think. I'm grateful to the middle-aged women in my life who asked just enough questions to make me think about it properly.

merrymouse · 01/09/2021 18:27

The reason so many older women know that some younger women are talking from a position of ignorance is that we were those younger women who confidently assumed we didn’t need sex specific rights.

“I just think every one should have the same rights. I wouldn’t really call myself a feminist” is the 90’s version of inclusive feminism.

Aparallaxia · 01/09/2021 21:17

One thing that's changed in the last 20 years is the rise of social media. Some voices are heard loud and clear, drowning out those of people of any age who don't spend their lives curating their profiles, etc. Fashions grow, spread and die with incredible speed, in part due to influencers, who are paid to sell stuff to people, so the more new products they introduce, the better. New versions of consumer disposables appear with amazing rapidity.

This comes on top of a massive change in the last 70 years or so with regard to two things: (1) people are older when they settle down and start a family; (2) there are more people in education over the age of 16, often to age 21 or even beyond. Hence more people in developed countries have a period of 10-15 years when they do not have a family to support and/or take care of, but they also have some disposable income, either from parents/guardians or from working full- or part-time or both.

(The extreme here is "pink pound" or "pink dollar"—the money men have when they are gay, in employment, often with a partner also employed, but no children to support. Lots of disposable income there. Palm Springs has been transformed in the last 20 years by the pink dollar. There is a lesbian community there too, of course, but men tend to make more money, gay or not.)

These factors combine to explain how outlets that don't directly depend on advertising, like the BBC, have been captured by Da Yoof and their combination of dedication to ephemera with rigid essentialism. Gender identity answers both needs: it's absolutely who I am, but it can change everyday if I want it to, so there. The BBC thinks it has to pander to this sort of thing, not realizing it is alienating its older viewers (and some younger ones) while still coming across as mutton dressed as lamb.

Youarethecurry · 01/09/2021 21:45

Those young women have only ever met mostly nice, plausible men, if they are university educated (and I think many working class women who aren't are very clearly opposed to GI) they will have encountered lots of very charismatic males who aren't ostensibly threatening.

Unfortunately they will soon learn the sad truth that many men conceal distasteful aspects of themselves, and many dislike women. They will learn about structural inequalities and that you can't identify out of your sex, and they may well see mediocre males pull ahead of them professionally, while they struggle with childrearing and/or the physical and mental upheavals of menopause.

I do sound like some old Wicked Fairy raining curses, but there are so many areas in life where we bow to the judgment of older people - it would be bizarre (and impossible) to have someone appointed to the Queen's Bench at 25, or to have a 30 year old Archbishop elected - why, because we recognise that experience is important and confers wisdom. Except, presumably, when it comes to women talking about their own experience of being a woman, in which case they can be laughed at, insulted, and told to shut the fuck up.

NiceGerbil · 01/09/2021 21:51

Personally I really don't like the ageism on this thread.

With young people as with not so young people it's not one homogeneous group!

Loads of people won't say what they think on this full stop. Irrespective of age.

With school and maybe uni age there's also the tribalism aspect. Like when I was young and alternative being terribly angsty and tortured and etc was important in some subgroups and carefully adopted by plenty who were cheerful perky and silly when with close friends.

I just don't think saying oh young people is right.

The police NHS schools etc aren't run by young people.
The prisons aren't.
Sports governing bodies aren't.
Government decision making/ departments aren't.

The situation we are in is down to people around my age. Not youngsters.

The most vocal supporters who are more public figures are not young.

What most of those things have in common is they're predominantly men.

It's not young people driving any of this. And that's not who changes have been done for.

It's all about men and power.

The fact that for a long time it was only Feminists and generally of a certain age who spoke out publicly. Is that saying things people hate hearing. Being told to shut up etc. Is their bread and butter. And they have established themselves. That means they are harder to dismiss.

I don't think young people are different.

What's a zoomer btw??!

NiceGerbil · 01/09/2021 21:57

'Those young women have only ever met mostly nice, plausible men, if they are university educated (and I think many working class women who aren't are very clearly opposed to GI) they will have encountered lots of very charismatic males who aren't ostensibly threatening.'

But. But...

Loads of girls don't have a university education.
Loads don't have a fancy job or are patrolled by parents.
Most will have experience of shit behaviour from men. Coercive boyfriends, Street harrassment. That generation still has girls/ women who have experienced rape. sexual abuse in the home or elsewhere. Creepy persistent men in clubs etc.

This narrative that some sorts of girls are somehow immune to all the shit bothers me as well.

NiceGerbil · 01/09/2021 21:58

In short.

Why is there so much attention on how awful young women are

When all of this is because of middle aged men?

GeorgeMichaelBluth · 01/09/2021 22:13

Yes Gerbil, those women were us once (I certainly was one of them).

NiceGerbil · 01/09/2021 23:07

I was a feminist from birth I think! Remember noticing how treated and being totally baffled as to why I was supposed to be pleased if someone complimented my appearance.

Only got worse with age!

But yes I was a cool girl in many respects I'm sorry to say.

If you are attracted to blokes I think it's probably a fairly inevitable thing. Same as blokes on the whole hide stuff like how they talk about women when they're with their mates.

In the end with this it's men that are the problem.

NiceGerbil · 01/09/2021 23:09

As per sodding usual.

And also as per usual really deep socialisation and encouragement from media etc that constantly pits women against each other... It's so easy to move the spotlight away from men.

LobsterNapkin · 01/09/2021 23:14

There are reasons however that gender ideology has its strongest supporters, by a fair margin, in university women - so whatever class and age profile that entails.

ladygindiva · 01/09/2021 23:25

My daughter is gc and 23 years old.

NiceGerbil · 01/09/2021 23:32

Why do you think university age women are the strongest supporters?

From what I see over and over it's men. Bringing court cases, getting aggressive at protests and marches, telling women off on social media, threatening them.

Misogynist men are loving this stuff.

NiceGerbil · 01/09/2021 23:37

I'd say that when the police are giving warnings and there are prosecutions over posts on social media

When govt depts have changed policies to fuck stats and put males in women's prisons.

When sports orgs cast aside the idea of sex separation that has been in place for yonks.

What does that have to do with young women? They didn't do any of that or the other stuff. It's institutions etc run by men.

In the public eye you have first comes to mind Nicola sturgeon v pro. She's not young though is she.

IvyTwines2 · 01/09/2021 23:49

I think many (most?) at the BBC and various arts orgs still take their cues from The Guardian, but as an online, non-paywalled paper, The Guardian of today is far more youth and US campus oriented than The Guardian of 15 or 20 years ago, which was a very different beast with much more age-diverse, seasoned contributors.

Rhannion · 01/09/2021 23:56

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Over 75s don't have to pay the licence fee.

Should they be dropping the age threshold for free TV licences to 35, at least for women?

I still wouldn't be eligible yet but it would be something to look forward to.

Over 75 years old people do have to pay license fees now.
Enough4me · 02/09/2021 00:04

Men blaming women for being too "old" at the same time highlighting that younger women are not involved as though they are not bothered, so equally blame for women being too young. This can also be switched when it suits men to link attractiveness and goodness (be a good girl, look young, be compliant).

The reality of this being an issue for all women is ignored. The focus instead is to shut women up and distracts that this is yet again men blaming women.

Phobiaphobic · 02/09/2021 00:11

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

once a woman is no longer fuckable she should just throw a sheet over herself and concentrate on dying as quickly and conveniently as possible, while never, ever inconveniencing a man. everyone knows that

fuck you BBC you bunch of sexist fuckers

Said it for me, thanks. Misogyny and ageism are always bed fellows.
NiceGerbil · 02/09/2021 00:14

I had a colleague a few years ago who shared some interesting articles with me that made me go ooohhhhh!

One was that in a meeting of equal colleagues. Even though most know not to ask for drinks or them to do the notes every time.

There's still a thing that they're expected to take a facilitator type role. Rather than get stuck into the meat of the meeting.

I immediately recognised this as something I had seen and a vague sense that somehow fully joining the conversation / disagreeing with some ideas etc was... Not expected.

I've observed this so much.

Phobiaphobic · 02/09/2021 00:15

@GeorgiaMcGraw

I can't stand the idea that we shouldn't listen to middle-aged and older women. It's ridiculous and makes no sense. I'm 29. I used to be a full on TWAW type but started seeing the dangers in it around 25, I think. I'm grateful to the middle-aged women in my life who asked just enough questions to make me think about it properly.
That's so encouraging. Good for you for being brave enough to listen.
NiceGerbil · 02/09/2021 00:20

99.99% of the world knows what male and female are. And in general which is vulnerable to which.

Irl I don't bring it up. Everyone who has brought it up with me thinks it's cobblers. And is baffled by what's going on. Only one has been supportive of gender > sex.

Phobiaphobic · 02/09/2021 00:25

@ArabellaScott I think you're spot on with your analysis of why men hate older women so much. By the time menopause hits, you've seen enough of their BS to last a lifetime, plus given we don't need them for reproduction any more, so even less incentive to put up with them.

NiceGerbil · 02/09/2021 00:27

My blokey bloke boss thinks it's bonkers and disgusting about the prisons.

My bog standard male colleagues are just nope.

I've had a friend of a friend bring it up. Think shaved head, big dogs. He went off on one about it. Had a lot to say! Males in female changing bogs etc outrageous.

The question is. How to get people to stand up?

Most men see it as not their place. Not their business. Don't want to get involved.

Most women also think well what can I do.

It's scary how this got so far so fast when if asked the population would have said eh? Don't be silly.

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