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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

591 replies

JustcameoutGC · 30/08/2021 10:16

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

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ArabellaScott · 31/08/2021 22:04

Thanks, Talking and Floral and others for excellent posts.

I'm so tired and over stating basic, simple biological facts. This is ridiculous. It's 2021. We have things to get on with. Women need to tackle the fact that rape is 'practically legal', we need to do something about FGM, about domestic violence, about female representation, about women's health, about all the bloody issues I've been fighting to try to change since I was a teenager.

Instead, I'm stuck here trying to get someone to tell me how a male can become a woman, perhaps at some unspecified time in the future by virtue of an imaginary chromosome-changing machine.

Helleofabore · 31/08/2021 22:07

So again, how have you got the authority to speak for the ‘vast’ majority of transwomen?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 31/08/2021 22:08

This bizarre need that many women have to coddle the feelings and egos of entitled males who can't bear to hear the word no from women. Not just about this, other things too. Weapons grade internalised misogyny.

I know. And they call themselves feminists while doing it!!

theThreeofWeevils · 31/08/2021 22:09

What do you think actually happens in exchanges? Are you imagining some sort of scenario where a trans lesbian walks up to another lesbian and demands sex? This is so bizarre. Why would you think that would happen?
You're dead fucking right about it being 'so bizarre '. As to why we think it might happen, well... Lesbians being called transphobic for categorical rejection of 'ladydick' has a lot to do with that. Are you denying that has happened?

suggestionsplease1 · 31/08/2021 22:15

@theThreeofWeevils

What do you think actually happens in exchanges? Are you imagining some sort of scenario where a trans lesbian walks up to another lesbian and demands sex? This is so bizarre. Why would you think that would happen? You're dead fucking right about it being 'so bizarre '. As to why we think it might happen, well... Lesbians being called transphobic for categorical rejection of 'ladydick' has a lot to do with that. Are you denying that has happened?
I have no doubt whatsoever that has happened. That it has is no reflection of the entire trans community. I've seen repugnant posts from supposedly GC feminists as well, but I'm under no illusion that their hate is representative of all GC feminists either.
Waitwhat23 · 31/08/2021 22:16

There seems to a conscious wide eyed naivety about the co-ersion which lesbians are experiencing to 'consider' transwomen as sexual partners.

I mean, there's this report - www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.html

There's the personal accounts by lesbians on this site.

There's a whole website which I'm sure has been referenced on this thread already (unfortunately can't remember the name) which gathers together the experiences which lesbians have come under extreme pressure.

We've seen many TRA accounts on Twitter outright stating that lesbians are transphobes if they don't agree to date transwomen.

But it never happens, right?

suggestionsplease1 · 31/08/2021 22:17

@Helleofabore

So again, how have you got the authority to speak for the ‘vast’ majority of transwomen?
O I'm sorry, you're right. You are obviously much better positioned to speak on their behalf. Maybe you should approach them all about voting you in as spokesperson?
GromblesofGrimbledon · 31/08/2021 22:19

Instead, I'm stuck here trying to get someone to tell me how a male can become a woman, perhaps at some unspecified time in the future by virtue of an imaginary chromosome-changing machine.

😂

Sorry Arabella. It's so ridiculous it's funny!

FloralBunting · 31/08/2021 22:20

This thread is about the leading charity for supporting homosexuals, Stonewall, not actually supporting male or female homosexuals be open and unapologetic about our sexual orientation.

I don't know if the fact that those who support Stonewall in this dereliction of mission are now suggesting fanciful philosophical thought experiments about male people being able to genetically change into female people in a few hundred years time is more laughable or downright offensive.

"I'm not homophobic. But how about you have a think about men being women one day in a magic sci-fi way, eh?"

MistandMud · 31/08/2021 22:20

Would anyone posting here want to date or have sex with someone who didn't desire them? Of course not!

Well, women tend not to have sex with people who don’t want to have sex with them, yes. Men, on the other hand, quite frequently do seem to want to have sex with those who don’t want to.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 31/08/2021 22:22

That it has is no reflection of the entire trans community

Has anyone said it is?

I may have missed it, its a big thread

Helleofabore · 31/08/2021 22:22

No, I am not the one throwing around assertions stating they are representative of the ‘vast majority’. But you are.

Why? And if it is purely anecdotal you need to be very clear about that.

If you have evidence of another nature, post it.

But why on earth should anyone believe your assertions?

Helleofabore · 31/08/2021 22:23

@Helleofabore

No, I am not the one throwing around assertions stating they are representative of the ‘vast majority’. But you are.

Why? And if it is purely anecdotal you need to be very clear about that.

If you have evidence of another nature, post it.

But why on earth should anyone believe your assertions?

This is of course for suggestions.
suggestionsplease1 · 31/08/2021 22:24

I'm just reading all of these posts thinking, thank god I am in such well-established lesbian communities that have a long history of making those welcome who self-ID as lesbians. Thankfully we have such a strong understanding on this point that as far as I can see we're not vulnerable to any insidious attempts to change the nature of how and who we meet.

We have a small number of trans lesbians present, a couple in relationships with other lesbians, and they bring a great deal to our groups and they get a lot out of them too. I know the sense of community and friendship has been so, so important for them amongst all the difficulties they have experienced in other areas of their lives and to think that people want to take that away from them, is frankly, horrifying.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 31/08/2021 22:25

Also personality engineers (who do not exist) to retro-fit the personality that would have developed had the person been treated from the day they were born the way our culture treats female-bodied people

I was thinking of this when Cherie Blair interviewed Mary Anne Sieghart about the latter's book. MAS claims that that when people transition, they start to be treated as the acquired sex and cites 2 academics who transitioned in opposite directions as 'proof' of this.

Sieghart explains not only that there is an authority gap that has serious consequences, but that closing it is good for everyone, men included. In a fascinating chapter about the experiences of trans men and women she illustrates a world hardwired to benefit men. Men reported losing authority once they transitioned, and women gained it.

www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jul/16/the-authority-gap-by-mary-ann-sieghart-review-why-men-are-still-on-top

www.penguin.co.uk/books/112/1120787/the-authority-gap/9780857527561.html

Does anyone think Oger, Bunce, Janiv/Simpson, Ivy, Levine, White, Hayton et al (going for a range here) have lost their initial privilege or added to it? Thinking of the trans men in Canada who encountering substantial problems - Kimberley, Newgent; considering the detransitioners interviewed by Boyce, plus Bell, Watson etc.

I should do Sieghart the courtesy of reading the account rather than accept the barebones of the account she gave in the interview but it opposes everything that I've known or heard/read about over a number of years. And it completely overlooked the need for personality/socialisation engineers.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 31/08/2021 22:26

I know the sense of community and friendship has been so, so important for them amongst all the difficulties they have experienced in other areas of their lives and to think that people want to take that away from them, is frankly, horrifying

No one wants to take community and friendship away…im guessing this hasnt been said either

FloralBunting · 31/08/2021 22:30

Yes, it's tremendously clear and always has been that your sympathy for lesbians who want to be in women only spaces is lacking because you're expending it all on the TW of your aquaintance. Stonewall supports you.

No doubt you'll be fine with LGB Alliance existing to support the lesbians who do want women-only spaces and are currently having to keep them secret because they are being pilloried by people like you and the fragrant BilindaB if they have them openly.

Waitwhat23 · 31/08/2021 22:32

@suggestionsplease1

I'm just reading all of these posts thinking, thank god I am in such well-established lesbian communities that have a long history of making those welcome who self-ID as lesbians. Thankfully we have such a strong understanding on this point that as far as I can see we're not vulnerable to any insidious attempts to change the nature of how and who we meet.

We have a small number of trans lesbians present, a couple in relationships with other lesbians, and they bring a great deal to our groups and they get a lot out of them too. I know the sense of community and friendship has been so, so important for them amongst all the difficulties they have experienced in other areas of their lives and to think that people want to take that away from them, is frankly, horrifying.

Do you have any comments about the points raised in the report by Get the L Out which describes the ostracisation of lesbians from LBGT groups because they do not want to consider transwomen as sexual partners? I find it horrifying that these women are losing their social structures and support spaces.

Or is hyperbole the only answer you have?

HeddaAga · 31/08/2021 22:33

@suggestionsplease1

I'm just reading all of these posts thinking, thank god I am in such well-established lesbian communities that have a long history of making those welcome who self-ID as lesbians. Thankfully we have such a strong understanding on this point that as far as I can see we're not vulnerable to any insidious attempts to change the nature of how and who we meet.

We have a small number of trans lesbians present, a couple in relationships with other lesbians, and they bring a great deal to our groups and they get a lot out of them too. I know the sense of community and friendship has been so, so important for them amongst all the difficulties they have experienced in other areas of their lives and to think that people want to take that away from them, is frankly, horrifying.

Lesbians. Do. Not. Have. To. Empathise. With. People. With. Penises. Women. Are. Not. Support. Humans.
334bu · 31/08/2021 22:39

There are lesbians that are happily dating trans lesbians

So lesbians in heterosexual relationships?

Datun · 31/08/2021 22:39

suggestionsplease1

It's pretty pointless being in complete denial about the coercion that lesbians are experiencing, when a man has been targeted and had to leave pride, purely on the basis of the fact that he was saying lesbianism exists.

There are no lesbian only dating sites, dating apps, clubs, bars. Zero. So don't come on here and pretend that lesbians aren't being targeted to have sex with men who say they're women.

As for males demanding sex from women who don't want to have sex with them, it's bloody commonplace. Five seconds on the relationships board will show you that.

I doubt there's a woman on here who hasn't an experienced a man attempting an unwanted sexual encounter. Rare it isn't.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 31/08/2021 22:43

I don't understand the mentality that if it works for some it should work for all.

Some lesbians are happy to view a transwoman as a woman and say that their relationship with said transwoman is still a lesbian relationship. It goes against the definition of lesbian as same sex attracted, but fine, knock yourself if you're in love and happy.

But why does that mean all lesbians have to agree with the inclusion of transwomen into the definition of "lesbian".

Surely those who are happy with this re-defining are in the minority and should just get on with it rather that trying to force a new meaning of the words gay and lesbian onto same sex attracted people. Sexual attraction is by its very definition not inclusive. That's not a bad thing.

OldCrone · 31/08/2021 22:45

Trans lesbians have no interest at all in dating or having sex with someone that is not attracted to them - why is that so difficult to understand?

Would anyone posting here want to date or have sex with someone who didn't desire them? Of course not!

By 'trans lesbians' I assume you mean heterosexual males.

The mere fact that some males commit rape indicates that some males do want to have sex with someone who doesn't desire them.

Why is that so difficult to understand.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 31/08/2021 22:46

So if a straight man was approached by a gay man I think they can easily say 'Sorry mate, I'm not interested', rather than saying 'Sorry mate, you've got a dick and balls and that's a real turn off for me', or if a straight woman was approached by a gay woman, she could say 'Sorry, I'm not interested' rather than shouting out 'God, no, I'm straight, your vulva is really unappealing to me"

So, suggestions.

That’s very creative on your part. I don’t know about you, but I suspect that lesbians and gay men tend to be very circumspect when approaching women and men they don’t already know to be also gay or bi. For very good reasons. A good number of straight men may not necessarily respond with words at all, if propositioned by a gay man, but may default straight to violence. It’s odd that you seem to be so unaware of the continuing phenomenon of “queer bashing” that you wouldn’t realise this.

Which is why lesbian and gay bars (and, for gay men particularly, other known cruising sites) have always been so important. These days dating apps perform an equivalent function.

For lesbians in particular, the benefit of a theoretically lesbian only space, real or virtual, is not just knowing that the women she meets there will also be lesbians, so potentially interested in her, but also the freedom from having to fend off the often incessant advances of male people.

You must have led an incredibly sheltered life if you think that women can easily knock back the advances of men without sometimes needing to be very blunt and assertive about it, without being in fear of the consequences of saying no to a male person who actually is so entitled that he doesn’t think women have a right to say no to him. Perhaps you’re unaware of the numbers of women who are assaulted or even killed every year because they had the temerity to say no to a violent, entitled, narcissistic man. It’s pretty grim, so maybe that’s why you choose to close your eyes to it.

Lesbian dating apps should be a refuge from all this. But they’re not. Women are being thrown off dating apps that should cater exclusively for them because they want to be able to state from tje get go they’re only interested in other biologically female people; they’re even being thrown off for repeatedly politely declining the advances of biologically male “lesbians”, as you say they should be perfectly entitled to do, because those male people then report them for “transphobia”, and that’s not allowed.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/lesbian-women-talk-about-meeting-transbians-on-women-only-dating-sites/

Women having boundaries isn’t allowed.

I’m also going to repost what you said upthread because it’s so shocking:

The final sentence "And that anyone attacking her for holding this position is being homophobic?" is problematic, as homophobia is not an inherent sentiment of someone who is unhappy that someone else might be discounting more people from dating options.

Let’s just look at that last bit again:

SOMEONE WHO IS UNHAPPY THAT SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT BE DISCOUNTING MORE PEOPLE FROM DATING OPTIONS.

Who are these “someones” who are entitled to be “unhappy” about “someone else’s” “dating options”??

WHO THE FUCK ARE THEY?

NO ONE is actually entitled to be unhappy about someone else’s dating options, absolutely not one single person on the whole planet.

But not in your world. In your world, there are some people who are entitled to this.

MEN who are UNHAPPY about WOMEN having sexual boundaries. That’s who. And you support and enable that RAPE CULTURE.

What the holy fucking fuck? I thought I was angry about this before but I’m fucking incandescent now.

This is the Feminism board. And you are coming here with THIS level of misogyny, of lesbophobia, of rape apologism.

You are someone who thinks that women having sexual boundaries isn’t acceptable. That is who you are, behind your mask of “trans rights”. And it’s so very, very ugly.

ArabellaScott · 31/08/2021 22:57

I know the sense of community and friendship has been so, so important for them amongst all the difficulties they have experienced in other areas of their lives and to think that people want to take that away from them, is frankly, horrifying.

Who's wanting to take what away from these people? Women want some spaces to themselves. Lesbians want not to be told to 'get over' their 'genital preferences'.

That is not the same as chasing transwomen out of social groups.

Declining to have a male-bodied person as a HCP, or saying male-bodied people shouldn't be housed in women's prisons, or just that women would like to have the right to say 'sorry, this group is just for women and girls' and not be sacked, doxxed, threatened, vilified, attacked and monstered for it does NOT mean anyone is saying that other women should keep their groups male-free.

You are happy to be inclusive of males - fab! Great! Fill your boots! So just let us have our women-only spaces in some specific instances, and everyone's happy, no?