Simon Callow article in The Times

[AnyOldPrion]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/actor-simon-callow-attacks-stonewall-the-lgbtq-group-over-trans-self-identification-6l3nd7hw3

Sorry, no share token, but pleased to see another significant figure speaking out.

^There’s a long and tragic history of members of minorities who’ve won greater acceptance kicking their ladder from beneath them.

That’s what Simon Callow is doing, and it’s grim.

As this thread shows, the onslaught against trans people mirrors the onslaught against gay people^

Owen Jones

Stonewall kicked their ladder from beneath them in 2014/15 ; a long and tragic 6 years for LGB kids

Christ almighty but talcum X gives me utter rage every bloody time.

There’s a long and tragic history of members of minorities who’ve won greater acceptance kicking their ladder from beneath them.

Really? Does he have some examples in mind.

In this case I'd say it's the people on the ladder trying to stop it being dismantled while they're still on it.

Stonewall kicked out the ladder for gay kids and fired toolkits at their educators, youth groups and online forums to put pressure on young gay people to transition

Great actor and a man with integrity.
I love how he recognises the women's rights aspect.
A totally good egg.
Bravo.

There’s a long and tragic history of members of minorities who’ve won greater acceptance kicking their ladder from beneath them.

What a bloody horrible thing to say. Silly man.

Typical OJ - ignores the arguments and goes straight for playyground jibes.

He simply does not have a clue what politics was like in the 80s, there were no corporate sponsored charities backing those who fought section 28, no posturing on twitter, no huffing about 'no debate'.

Thank you Simon Callow you beautiful creature. God it feels pathetic to feel so grateful for any bit of public support.

Aren't we on Section 31 now?

Section 28; prosecute anything which discusses “promoted homosexuality”.
2014 Section 29; erase homosexuality, change lesbian spaces to mixed-sex or shut them down

2018 Section 30; deplatform homosexuals, cancel people defending homosexuals
2020 Section 31; roll out across public bodies continues

God Talcum X is such a horrible person. I suspect he gets a lot of his Patreon funding via this kind of thing and that’s why he’s so incredibly invested in it.

@FindTheTruth

Aren't we on Section 31 now?

Section 28; prosecute anything which discusses “promoted homosexuality”.
2014 Section 29; erase homosexuality, change lesbian spaces to mixed-sex or shut them down

2018 Section 30; deplatform homosexuals, cancel people defending homosexuals
2020 Section 31; roll out across public bodies continues

Section 32: educate society that sex classes, the existence of any sexual preferences (way beyond orientation) or discussions of consent are, by their nature, problematic, prejudicial, and *phobic.

*See the provocative arguments in The Right to Sex

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1526612534/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

OJ blocking and patronising people left and right over this by the look of it.

Nancy Kelly is spinning a very creative interpretation of matters on Twitter as well, reading like a petulant teen in a strop with their dad.

All proving Callow's point of course.

@zanahoria

Typical OJ - ignores the arguments and goes straight for playyground jibes.

He simply does not have a clue what politics was like in the 80s, there were no corporate sponsored charities backing those who fought section 28, no posturing on twitter, no huffing about 'no debate'.

No he doesn't - and the fact that he has no clue is due in no small way to people like Callow.

@zanahoria

^There’s a long and tragic history of members of minorities who’ve won greater acceptance kicking their ladder from beneath them.

That’s what Simon Callow is doing, and it’s grim.

As this thread shows, the onslaught against trans people mirrors the onslaught against gay people^

Owen Jones

This is how OJ talks about issues over and over again. It's always "this is the same as that."

He doesn't seem to recognize that even if there are some elements that are the same, it does not follow that it is an identical argument.

I've come to the conclusion that probably he doesn't really understand or maybe even really pay attention to what the basic arguments around how rights of homosexuals were, in terms of things like privacy, the larger role of sex or marriage in society, not to mention questions like how we think about rights of individuals vs larger social structures, how we manage things like rights of religious bodies or people who conscientiously object, etc. If he did, he would be able to understand both the way in which they were similar and the ways in which they were different, and that the right answers aren't always simple and obvious, and that reasonable people might disagree about many things.

Ooh now that's a bloody good article, thank you Simon callow whoever you are.

This is how OJ talks about issues over and over again. It's always "this is the same as that."

Arguing by analogy is a bit futile, I guess thats why OJ enjoys it so much.

Analogies rarely prove anything, they just add colour to a debate but are no substjtute for solid reasoning.

OJ just ignores what people say and goes for analogies and insults.

He really is a child

Trending on twitter :

"Trending in United Kingdom
Simon Callow
The Times interviews actor and gay rights campaigner Simon Callow about Stonewall and the LGBTQ group's stance on self-identification for transgender people
Trending with Stonewall"

Well done for being brave enough to speak up for women Simon Callow

Good for Simon.

@risefromyourgrave

Oh I’m so glad that he’s come out and said this after Ian McKellen being such a disappointment.

I don't think McKellen has ever really seemed like the kind of person who is actually willing to discuss everything, and actually engage while doing so. Not all campaigners are or even were in the past.

Well done Simon Callow. We just need a nice, sensible discussion so that women's rights, LGB rights and trans rights are all respected. At the moment we have some sort of crazy Equality Top Trumps going on in which anyone who is even the slightest bit TQIA scoops the pool and everyone else gets nothing

Its like little Talcm does not know the difference between a commentator and a troll.
All this willfull missunderstanding, is he really that thick or is it his arguing ploy?

It always surprises me that Talcum has a degree in history because he seems to have learnt so little from it. For example, he has this idea about people being judged by history, because in the future people will be wonderfully enlightened and look with horror on these benighted times. Everyone who has studied history beyond GCSE level is warned about the Whig interpretation of history - the fallacy of history as some kind of onward movement towards progress.

And he should also be aware of the dangers of making exact parallels between events in the past and events in the present. You see this a lot among journalists, for example, when they claim that the invasion of Iraq is just like the Second World War. (No, it's not.) The so-called trans rights movement has next to nothing in common with the gay rights movement of the 1980s and 1990s. Gay people endured centuries of having their sexuality outlawed, being sent to prison or even executed for their sexual orientation. In the dark days of the 1980s they suffered the setback of Section 28, an outright ban on teaching children about homosexuality in schools. What is the equivalent struggle of trans people? Where are the centuries of legislation against trans identities? The only legislation at all relating to trans people is the Equality Act (2010), which gives them significant protections in law. After that, what is left? The answer is: the right to get into women-only spaces. And since when is the campaign to get your dick out in the women's changing room the legitimate struggle of an oppressed class?