Are younger teens and pre-teens rejecting gender woo?

[bellinisurge]

Saw someone on Twitter say this. My own early teen, who loves to disagree with me for the hell of it has started critiquing gender woo by herself. "I used to say stuff to wind you up, Mum. But it's just so ridiculous, isn't it". A classmate changes pronouns a few times a week and shouts at you if you misgender them apparently. Teen getting fed up of it.

I do baulk at the "inspiring" messages that tell youngsters 'you can be anything you want to be...'

No. you can't. You can only be what you truly are. And realising your potential grows from that self-knowledge.

My 12 year old saw this from very early when she questioned why there was a boy in Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls - she said that it was weird to include them as no girl can ever be like them and that they should be in Goodnight Stories for Rebel Boys.

@FrauleinSchweiger

I have DD15 and DD13 and they are both v sceptical about the whole subject and we discuss it at some length. It's actually one area where they do agree with me as it's become a bit of a joke that every week someone at school decides they are non-binary. Usually, and interestingly to my mind, these are the girls who were really "girly" growing up. Furthermore their declarations don't seem to change their outward appearance in any way. My eldest DD has already been advised by so-called friends to "educate " herself having misgendered someone who seems to change gender as often as underwear. Unfortunately she says she would now rather not talk to people in case she's accused of this again. Sadly they both feel that they can't share their views for fear of being labelled trans phobic. It would be interesting to know how many people of their age actually agree with all the gender ideology or those who, like my DDs choose to stay under the radar for fear of being isolated from their peers.

I think saying under the radar is a big problem. My teen has some reservations about some aspects of gender ideology but keeps them to herself at school.

@FrauleinSchweiger @ChristinaXYZ I have two teenage relatives who have both, separately, moved from schools in working class areas to schools in middle class areas and encountered teenagers who identify as trans/non-binary for the first time, and in both schools the trans/non binaries are, they say, acting like bullies and using things like accidental 'wrong pronouns' (this at a single sex school!) as a means to get them into trouble. It all sounds very Heathers, 2021 style.

DD, 16, challenged (pointlessly really) the manager of Primark on Saturday. She wanted to know why they had buckled under the weight-of-wokeness and made their dressing rooms mixed.

At first he starting blathering on about 'management' but she asked what the policy was behind it so he started talking about non-binary/twaw shite and that it was what people expected. She told him it was rubbish and her and her friends didn't want to get undressed with men and, in a protest - returned her basket of clothes to him. He then told her that 'he was sorry and that actually, not a lot of customers liked or wanted the setup but there was nothing he could do'.

DD then re selected everything she'd had in her basket and asked me to pay so noone would see that she wasn't actually making a stand

My eldest DD (15) came home from school the other day and said: guess what, Jane (I have made up this name) now wants to be called James (ditto). But she can’t be James, mum, cos that’s a boy’s name and she’s a girl - I have seen her boobs in the PE changing room!

Yes, my DC get it. Totally.

God I wish. Can't even have a discussion with DD 16. No idea what the rest of them think because she's so loud on the subject

At first he starting blathering on about 'management' but she asked what the policy was behind it so he started talking about non-binary/twaw shite and that it was what people expected. She told him it was rubbish and her and her friends didn't want to get undressed with men and, in a protest - returned her basket of clothes to him.

Well done to your DD!

He then told her that 'he was sorry and that actually, not a lot of customers liked or wanted the setup but there was nothing he could do'.

My neighbours' children (10 and nearly 13) aren't interested. They think gender woo is yesterday's news, and what teachers say rather than anything to do with their early adolescent peer culture.

Not pre teen, but older teens. I teach in a mixed sex secondary school, in a subject where the role of men and women are studied frequently. This year, more than ever, I have been worried about teaching one particular module in case the trans debate came up, as due to an internal change in how we teach it, it would have been the first time teaching it since JK Rowling and of course, the Olympics debates. I was anticipating discussions where I would have to shut down debate for getting too emotional. Didn't have any throughout the entire module, and last week, in the final lesson of the module, one particular student steered us onto the debate about trans rights. My heart was in my mouth and I was prepared to have to intervene, but what I was particularly heartened to see was a healthy, reasoned and respectful discussion. In particular, it was interesting to see the following points being made by students themselves, all of which were sympathetic to the struggles of trans individuals, but still concluded:

• most people in a civilised society would support that how people choose to live is up to them, but certain rights cannot come at the expense of others' rights.
• sometimes there are very good reasons for separating men and women based on their sex.
• we aren't doing women favours if we do not acknowledge the biological advantages men have, especially in sport and in issues of women's safety.
• some of the trans debate is really unscientific (this came from a bold student who fortunately is very well respected amongst their peers!)

I was really surprised by this as I know from experience in the classroom and from lurking on here that some teenagers find it difficult to voice these views amongst their peers. I tried to make sure I simply facilitated discussion and didn't impose my views on them, but it did make me wonder if the tide could be turning...

I hope there are no follow-up complaints! However, I just wanted to share this as I was interested, and pleased, to see that they felt at the time they could express those views in the classroom.

There are some very reassuring posts here. I’m hoping that we’re moving towards a time when some people don’t try and subsume so many different things into whatever the latest unwieldy version of LGBTQIA…. is.

It’s illogical to put these all together. The LG & B refer to someone’s sexual preferences, and the others to someone’s self-identity. I think it was a mumsnet post I saw that said putting all these together (sexual preferences and self identify) was like trying to pretend parents of children and pet owners were one group. There might be some similarities across the two but you can’t simply bundle them all together.

And yeah, as it seems to be a certain demographic that is so hot on including pronouns in email signatures etc hopefully this will age with them, and date them accordingly. So for now most emails I get that include pronouns are from earnest millennials, so if they keep it up in twenty years time will it be something that is associated with fifty year olds?! And so seem less desirable?

On other parts of MN, however, I've seen references to the growth of 'simps' in school/related WhatsApp or SnapChats - or boys who disdain respect for/assistance to girls/women.

manofmany.com/lifestyle/what-is-a-simp

I'm in no position to assess the relative positions of young people on this.