I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

As an aside, I detest 'cis.' It turns the clearly oppressed sex class 'women' into a privileged sub-group of the new gender identity class 'women' and thereby suggests that what these 'cis' people might say should be discounted due to their privilege. Also, 'cis' is actually defined as referring to a person whose abstract gender identity just happens to coincide with her or his physical sex. It does NOT allow that identity (in a looser sense) to be based ON the person's physical sex, including the embodied experiences of living with a female body and how others treat one due to that body not being a male body.

This is a fantastically clever sleight of hand,, because it apriori excludes the way most people (in my opinion) actually 'identify.' That way is erased so that no 'cis' woman could possibly be at all upset when 'woman' is replaced by 'people' or 'menstruator.' After all, her identity is stipulated to be separate from her body,, too.

I agree. And I have a problem when genderists say "it's just that there are trans women and cis women, it's just a term like straight, you don't mind being called straight". False equivalence, because baked into "cis" is the notion that TWAW, which I emphatically don't believe. If you want me to use "cis" in the same way as straight, then I'm going to only be using "trans women" to mean FTM trans people because that's my belief.

@TheFairPrincess

This is an article about the pain of transwomen. You may find it interesting.

medium.com/@kittyit/on-hurting-trans-women-a4a0ef1ef8d4

Wow, such a powerful article, thank you.

I hurt trans women. I hurt trans women when I name them as male people. I hurt trans women when I talk about the trans women who abused me. I hurt trans women when I talk about how the ideology of trans activism is fundamentally woman-hating. I hurt trans women when I talk about how male people identifying as lesbians is inherently lesbian-hating. I hurt trans women when I talk about the trans women who rape and murder. I hurt trans women when I won’t change my mind. I hurt trans women when I won’t shut my mouth about how trans women hurt me. I hurt trans women. I do.

But what about my pain? What about female pain? Can you answer? Did you hear me? Hello?

This is elective surgery to changes the look of a certain parts of person’s body. So what should be used as a descriptive? Surgical transition?

Elective surgery to change the appearance of body parts is usually described as cosmetic procedures/ surgeries.

@BatmansBat thanks for the link. That hits the nail squarely on the head, doesn't it?

"Oh, thank goodness. How would you like it to get up in the morning, Paul, and face the day slashing away at perfectly normal organs, because you guys don’t know what’s the matter.”

That's the first time I've read a surgeon accurately describe operations like eg 'top surgery' in young teenage girls.

As opposed to this Canadian ghoul of a surgeon who makes a joke out of it.

'Progression'.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Wow, such a powerful article, thank you.

I hurt trans women. I hurt trans women when I name them as male people. I hurt trans women when I talk about the trans women who abused me. I hurt trans women when I talk about how the ideology of trans activism is fundamentally woman-hating. I hurt trans women when I talk about how male people identifying as lesbians is inherently lesbian-hating. I hurt trans women when I talk about the trans women who rape and murder. I hurt trans women when I won’t change my mind. I hurt trans women when I won’t shut my mouth about how trans women hurt me. I hurt trans women. I do.

But what about my pain? What about female pain? Can you answer? Did you hear me? Hello?

That right there!

This articulates how I see people discussing how ‘hurtful’ it is to make a distinction between women and those males who identify as women. How ‘it hurts’ those males to be excluded.

And those who use that narrative never seem to acknowledge women’s needs and the ‘hurt’ it causes women.

Seeing a persons penis in the showers when you are in prison, as described by the very brave Amy in court, will be all it takes to cause harm. Whether the rest of the body looks like Blaire White’s perfectly curated look or not. Who is going to arbitrate who goes into the female prison because they look feminine enough?

How much does it hurt women that people ignore the statistics that that penis has the same chance as being on a sex offender as it would if it was in the male estate of the prison. That it simply does not become less likely to belong to a sex offender because that person identifies as a woman.

This agenda has been pushed by many of the trans ‘influencers’ without any thought for women because those people place more value on inclusion than on women’s needs. It they cared about inclusion for all, they would be advocating for another solution.

@Mummyoflittledragon a person who has a neo penis or vagina is a transsexual, of course, but they are then physically comparable to the sex they aim to be and therefore belong in those single sex spaces.

A transwoman who still has a penis could scare (or be potentially a danger) to biological women. And a transman who still has a vagina could be potentially in danger of being attacked.

Yes the "potential" is the reason why we have single sex spaces. "Most men" don't but some do, fact!

grey12

@Mummyoflittledragon a person who has a neo penis or vagina is a transsexual, of course, but they are then physically comparable to the sex they aim to be and therefore belong in those single sex spaces.

As TRAs are so fond of telling us, no-one knows what genital arrangement someone has, so it's moot.

A rape survivor, triggered by the presence of males will react to the sight, sound and smell of a male body. Being told they've had cosmetic surgery will be irrelevant.

A woman here described the lengths rape refuges go to in order to limit PTSD reactions. They included not raising voices, making sure footsteps were as quiet as possible and not slamming doors.

Admitting males who have had invisible surgery wasn't one of them.

had to go and do real life so only just caught up on the thread

it is fascinating to talk to someone who genuinely believes that single sex spaces are important, while also somehow believing that some men should have the right to use those spaces.

it's no wonder such people find concrete examples of the consequences of their beliefs upsetting.

It does make me wonder / worry what similar contradictory beliefs I might be holding. In what circumstance do I characterise disagreement as hate?

Just to clarify further to grey’s point.

a person who has a neo penis or vagina is a transsexual, of course, but they are then physically comparable to the sex they aim to be and therefore belong in those single sex spaces.

The cosmetic rearrangement of genitals are simply that. Physically a male is still stronger and more powerful. Unless they have also had extreme facial surgery, they will still have features that will identify them such as brow, Adam’s apple etc.

So, when activists talk about ‘what is in someone’s pants’, it simply doesn’t actually matter to a traumatised woman who picks up other features reliably.

@TheFairPrincess

Prison figures show that either TW are far more likely to be sexual predators than males as a whole

Wrong. Transwomen prisoners are more likely to be sexual predators than male prisoners

Not that surprising.

And so putting them in the female estate is a good thing because?

Also pretty sure hiving them off to their separate section for sleep is considered transphobic, and doesn't stop the women being assaulted in daylight hours.
Or do you believe rapes are only committed after dark or something?

@Helleofabore I'm always taken by the animation I've seen on other threads of a male and a female body walking alongside each other. The skeletal structures and musculature differences means that male and female bodies move completely differently, which won't be changed in any way by cosmetic surgery.

A woman here described the lengths rape refuges go to in order to limit PTSD reactions. They included not raising voices, making sure footsteps were as quiet as possible and not slamming doors.

The absolute madness of showing this understanding and care for PTSD - but enforcing at the same time one of the worst and most severe triggers for a large number of those females.

Care and consideration of female PTSD only goes as far as what's possible after male needs are met.

How much does it hurt female humans to be repeatedly shown, daily, in so many contexts, that they are only second class humans entitled to only the dregs that are left after when the most important sort of humans have had everything they need and want? That being told this is not only right and normal that they should be treated with such lower standards, but that daring to speak out about it is 'hate' and 'bigotry'? Is this seriously what anyone wants to look a little girl in the eye and tell her she's been born to?

This sexist, wholly sex class based thinking actually comes at its worst from those who will tell you that sex isn't binary, no one knows what sex anyone is, and sex can be altered!

I have never yet seen a TW's sex be altered to the point that they are treated with the contempt and inferiority and silencing that is the lot of females. I have never yet seen anyone in the faintest doubt of which sex gets to have their feelings and needs and wishes met with enthusiasm, government funding and important people rushing to their aid, and which sex can shut up or die in a grease fire/be kerb stomped.

*Hormones are a component of biological sex, and one of the key factors in sexual development.

Hormone therapy alters biological sex.*

Please do read up on logical fallacies, Hexed. You've just walked into a clanger there.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I would hope that experienced staff and tbh any person can recognise inappropriate behaviour long before it escalates into assault, in most cases.

It's not an ideal situation is it, it's about doing our best to keep people safe. Do people really think someone dressed and living completely as a woman, taking female hormones, feminising their appearance, is going to be safe in single sex male environments? Because that's what I just can't get past.

With trans women in female spaces there's a risk of harm. With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.[/quote]
Ok enough posters have told you that dressing as a woman is not needed to be a trans woman. They just have to say the words and they are magically transformed, hence Alex Drummond's beard, Eddie izzard, danielle Muscato, Christian Chandler et al.
No hormones need to be taken, no surgery needs to be done.
Your very own father or brother or uncle could say the words and now they are allowed to be naked next to you in the gym changing room.
Someone will link to the tweet from fionne orlander (I think) who sent a picture of herself in the mens toilet at an event.
If fionne can do this, all transwomen can do this.

And finally the first thing that came to my mind back when I first heard about self id was
What stops a man simply following a transwoman into the ladies loo and having a go in the ladies? After all the man just needs to say the words.
What stops an abusive husband following his wife into the DV shelter, because he says those words, he is now legally a woman and can get the room next to his wife, see her at meal times etc. Would the wife even bother to go to the shelter?

And just for the record Hexed, something like 99% of children who are treated with puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones. Puberty blockers do not allow a child to develop physically. Therefore their sex organs will remain prepubescent.

Criss sex hormones do not put the child through the puberty of the opposite sex.

See jazz Jennings. For whom genital surgery was all but impossible, due to their prepubescent genitalia.

It goes hand-in-hand with sterility, lack of adult sexual function and life long treatment.

This is the wrong place to advocate medical intervention in children.

@TheFairPrincess

I have already apologised for using the word hate, you don't need to continue to belittle me.

Who is saying women's needs don't matter? Of course they do. You can't argue that all women have the same opinion on trans inclusion or feel uncomfortable. Single sex spaces, designed inherently for vulnerable people like prisoners or SA survivors, are not representative of where and how the majority of people live most of their lives.

You are saying womens needs dont matter, this entire thread you've said that. If only one of the 30 million women in this country says no thank you, then that's valid and means no men of any type in any female space. I can find you millions of women who say no thank you. Therefore ipso facto no men are allowed in.

As for the prisons and sexual assault survivors you seem to be saying they dont much matter. They matter to me and as virtually every woman in this country (and worldwide) will have been assaulted, then it definitely is representative of womens lives.

@TheFairPrincess

An example I discussed with my partner is Blair White. She is a post op, completely feminine looking trans woman. How would it be appropriate for her to be in a men's prison and how would her physical appearance and lack of penis be universally triggering to other women?

Blair white is most definitely not post op. Blair mentions this quite often so you need to listen better.

I understand that it must be awful to feel like you don't belong. Where society accepts you just enough to acknowledge you but to still always be treated in the background really as your bio gender

Isnt this about women? The cunty type?
This is womens lives from being born til death.
We are generally accepted, so long as we dont create waves and then still bloody ignoted.

@Datun and @Helleofabore in no way was I talking about shelters. I'm sorry if I missed that point. I was talking about bathrooms, changing rooms and the like

I have said in different threads that there definitely should be shelters specific for trans people. They actually need different help as their experiences are different

@Congressdingo

I understand that it must be awful to feel like you don't belong. Where society accepts you just enough to acknowledge you but to still always be treated in the background really as your bio gender

Isnt this about women? The cunty type?
This is womens lives from being born til death.
We are generally accepted, so long as we dont create waves and then still bloody ignoted.

Applause

Still reading the thread but this stated by Hex
Ah yes, the idea that "you can always tell". But guess what, you wouldn't be able to tell if we were to let trans women were transition in their childhood. Which is precisely why we should let trans kids medically transition. So that once they grow into trans adults, people like you can't use the disfigurement caused by going through the wrong puberty to dehumanize them and justify discrimination against them
That sounds very experimental to me, is that what these kids are? An experiment to see if you’re right? What happens if you give a 12 year old boy puberty blockers, he doesn’t experience puberty but when he’s 21 decides he is a boy? We don’t know what will happen, it’s all speculation. Are you happy to risk that kids mental well-being and physical health to see if you’re right?

Which is precisely why we should let trans kids medically transition. So that once they grow into trans adults, people like you can't use the disfigurement caused by going through the wrong puberty to dehumanize them and justify discrimination against them

This bears repeating really. This is what some people who will not have had the health risks associated with transitioning as a child wish on a generation of children. This is also the same people who ignore the increased health risk to female transitioners. Including a huge increase in early onset dementia brought on through loosing ovary function at such an early age.

But it is ok…. No males harmed in this experiment it seems. That Hex is repeating such claims shows a general lack of care for females.

Thank you grey.