I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

[quote TheFairPrincess]**@RedDogsBeg* why do people keep saying this to me? On the basis of case by case inclusion, that would obviously include the consultation of any other women that would be in the same space. If it's not appropriate for whatever* reason it's not appropriate. Emotional harm, physical harm, all of it.[/quote]
Do you have any idea what happens to women who voice any objection?

Did you see what happened to J. K. Rowling? All she said was she has been the subject of male abuse and that sex matters.

Maya forstarter was fired. Women have been threatened with rape and violence. And been subjected to actual violence. Posey Parker was told that the person hoped her child died of Covid. This is utterly commonplace. I can't tell you how many tens of thousands of threats like this have been issued to women.

Women in rape refuges were consulted about whether or not they felt they should be able to choose the sex of their counsellor. And guess what? All the testimony was utterly ignored. Binned.

A woman who was assaulted by a man in a female prison took it to court. And guess what? The court said I'm sorry it's legal. I realise it's shit, but it's perfectly legal, luv.

I know this is a really overused phrase, but please, for the love of Mike, get informed about this.

@TheFairPrincess

An example I discussed with my partner is Blair White. She is a post op, completely feminine looking trans woman. How would it be appropriate for her to be in a men's prison and how would her physical appearance and lack of penis be universally triggering to other women?

How would it be appropriate for them to be in a female prison when they are male?

Both male and female prisons should have segregated facilities for particular vulnerable prisoners. Or could just not do the crime in the first place...

No one wants to belittle you. But you are defending TW in female spaces on the basis of factually wrong beliefs and people want you to see that.

There's nothing wrong with taking new information on board. Understanding that TW are not all harmless and that the danger to women is real, will not transform you instantly into a heartless meanie ole radical feminist who nobody likes.

@TheFairPrincess

I also have self ID concerns but not concerns against trans people as a whole, there is a difference.

Could you expand on that? What do you see the difference as being between a self-ID transperson and a transperson?

[quote TheFairPrincess]**@RedDogsBeg* why do people keep saying this to me? On the basis of case by case inclusion, that would obviously include the consultation of any other women that would be in the same space. If it's not appropriate for whatever* reason it's not appropriate. Emotional harm, physical harm, all of it.[/quote]
The overwhelming opinion of the public is that single sex spaces and services should be just that single sex. Are you suggesting people on the doors to question the women within whether or not they are comfortable and then advise the TW waiting outside of the results? A referendum each and every time?

It is not appropriate for female single sex services and provisions to become mixed sex, if TW can't bear to access the services that are designed for their sex then they should campaign and lobby for additional spaces and services designed exclusively for them. Bearing in mind how they are the cause de jour with the ear of Government and a very powerful lobby group four square behind them they would have no problem being heard and getting their own spaces and services.

@TheFairPrincess

I do get that, I really do, I struggle with this all the time.

I just feel like people who go through their lives as subjects as ridicule and persecution, taking hormones and getting feminisation surgery, all sorts, are really not doing this so they can harm women. That's what I mean when I say we shouldn't discriminate. How can a TW who has gone through all that feel safe in male spaces? If sex is binary, and there isn't a third gender, and they identify, live as women, how can we not include them when they need to be included?

And how often do they even need to be included? Is the time and effort we spend fighting off trans equality worth it? Is there not a middle ground or specific situations where we can say it is or isn't appropriate?

You should be aware that it has been reported that 85% of those who say they are transgender do not seek medical treatment- no surgery, no hormones.

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19292.pdf

(but hey, join us if you want to :o)

@TheFairPrincess I think your understanding of 'trans' is rather out of date.

We're not just talking about a handful of poor souls who hate their bodies so much that they alter them with hormones and surgeries (that makes no difference to me btw), who keeps their heads down and just want to quietly get on with their lives.

In 2021 we're talking about literally any male who says he is a woman. That is who you're advocating to have access to women's spaces. You cannot give access to the former without the latter taking it, too.

If you haven't seen it before, this thread might help you to understand where many of us are coming from:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Well first of all I feel like as feminists we could do a better job of separating transphobia from genuine concerns. Politics is about optics and not just information, misgendering and deadnaming trans women is undermining LGBTQ rights that have come so far. It doesn't help when places like mumsnet are constantly debating the very idea or nature of "trans". Surely it would be more prudent to focus on the fact that there are trans people, and what this means within the context of society.

Second, some people are sick, bad people and will join ostracised groups or far leaning political movements in order to use their perceived victimhood in order to justify being absolute degenerate human beings. The literal only thing to do is to ignore such hate except to prosecute where possible. The internet is full of absolute weirdos, no matter what you do people will send hate to public figures when they think they can.

It's an absolute shit storm. But you can't use twitter to represent normal people.

@TheFairPrincess

An example I discussed with my partner is Blair White. She is a post op, completely feminine looking trans woman. How would it be appropriate for her to be in a men's prison and how would her physical appearance and lack of penis be universally triggering to other women?

Hate to break it to you but I’m pretty sure Blair White still has a penis, they’re very open about not wanting bottom surgery.

@GoodieMoomin isn't that a good basis to advocate for case by case basis inclusion then?

@TheFairPrincess

An example I discussed with my partner is Blair White. She is a post op, completely feminine looking trans woman. How would it be appropriate for her to be in a men's prison and how would her physical appearance and lack of penis be universally triggering to other women?

Because Blair is male. And everyone knows it. Cosmetic surgery means Jack shit. I've seen transwomen who look utterly beautiful, act exactly like domineering, bullying men. And they know they are. They've been raised to be.

Strewth. It doesn't get more superficial than deciding men and women's sex based on their cosmetic surgery.

Have you ever listened to the radio when there is a transwoman and a woman on? Or a TV programme?

No one is in any doubt, that the person is male. The way they act, but equally importantly, the way they're treated. The airtime they are given. The last word, etc. The way they will talk over women.

You're doing it now, on this thread.

You are putting the feelings, not the safety, but the feelings of men above women's safety.

Yes, Blair White successfully comes across as a woman at least initially and in the media BW releases.

But so what? I respect BW who makes some really considered contributions to this debate. But why do you care so much more about someone like BW feeling the slightest discomfort or awkwardness, than about millions of women? Why are you so focused on giving TW whatever they want, and not on defending women's safety? I'm not saying BW is a threat, but that the principle of self IDing into women's spaces lays women open to much greater threat. Why doesn't that matter? If we care about the safety of people like BW, which I do, then the solution is third spaces or where relevant/possible, unisex single spaces.

How would it be appropriate for her to be in a men's prison and how would her physical appearance and lack of penis be universally triggering to other women?

Have you ever seen them in person? Do they ‘pass’ 100%? Or are you looking at them through the careful staging, the filters, the poses, the make up.

Have you looked at their walk, their hands etc.

There are many give aways. Why should a female who may identify this person as their original sexist be traumatized when that person? Why should a woman be traumatized because of a male presence where she expected single sex?

You are making judgement calls based on a carefully curated profile and expecting it to hold true in real life.

@TheFairPrincess

But why not fix the issue of women being ignored then? Why focus on refusing trans people rights on the premise that someone might feed offended at their presence, or uncomfortable?

Why not fix the issue that male violence is the issue here.

Men on transwomen
Transwomen on women.

Why do women have to change their mind set? Why do women have to fight to be heard.

Why can't people concentrate on stopping male violence on transwomen so they can use their own spaces.

Why is male violence being ignored whilst women are told 'be kind and not be mean'?

Its the males that ned to change and fix things - not us

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine @TheFairPrincess

Sorry to @ you again, Princess but I just saw Fine's reply and wanted to tell you that Blaire is in tact

The answer to the prison issue is segregated wings within the prisons of their sex.

Strangely, there would appear to be NO transmen AT ALL within the prison estate, and the rules are that should one be incarcerated they WILL be placed within the female estate whatever they say and irrespective of whether or not they have a GRC. Odd that.

[quote GoodieMoomin]**@ItsAllGoingToBeFine* @TheFairPrincess*

Sorry to @ you again, Princess but I just saw Fine's reply and wanted to tell you that Blaire is in tact[/quote]
The same is true of Tara Hudson. Imprisoned with men, and eventually move to female prison. Had a string of offences, including nutting a barman. But they were very pretty. And claimed that's why they were targeted in prison.

Turns out they were advertising on a porn site about their '7 inch surprise'.

It wouldn't surprise me, in the slightest, if these people were targeted in a male prison.

And that's why there is a vulnerable prisoners unit.

The solution is not to put men in with the women, ffs. 7 inch surprise or not.

TheFairPrincess

Perhaps you don't realise that something like 90% of men who identify as women retain their penis?

How does this "case by case" basis work in practice though @TheFairPrincess - a TW wanting to access a female only counselling session. Do they get access, then another participant raises a concern, then a panel is convened, what evidence do they look for, how are they balancing concerns.

What about a TW wanting to apply for a post that is specifically for women, does the TW declare their position, does the employer then pause recruitment whilst making a decision (with the same questions about who & how), and if a TW can apply to the role, what about any male who hasn't self ID'd as a TW - I think that is what the law says doesn't it? What happens to the service users who are potentially without a key role during this process. Or does the TW apply, get the job and then just ride it out.

I understand. It's so difficult. I go back and forth all the time. It's a horrible dissonance because I absolutely LOVE people like Contrapoints and I really have a problem with the idea of excluding already marginalised people in such a cut and dry way.

But I really do understand the inherent and undeniable dissonance, the fact that these people are not women, and have not lived womanhood. I don't know what society should look like, but the public discourse between "TERFs" and "TRAs" is very upsetting and I understand that it must be awful to feel like you don't belong. Where society accepts you just enough to acknowledge you but to still always be treated in the background really as your bio gender.

I think trans women should live their lives as trans women and be fully integrated and supported in that. Maybe dedicated single sex spaces for vulnerable women should never be accessible for non bio women and should be treated as completely separate to "normal" society. I still can't ever imagine forcing TW to use mens toilets. Maybe Unisex. But isn't that cutting off our noses to spite our face and just inviting more men into those spaces?

I don't know. I'm fucking tired, my DC have gone to bed and I've barely seen them, I've been typing on here for hours.

But how do you get justifiably upset about female job positions going to trans women without being transphobic? How the fuck do I justify that to myself?

Sorry, this thread is moving very quickly.

Did I miss the statistics and the studies that prove that this subset of males, who go through a great deal to present as women, or since 80-90% keep their penises probably not as much as PP believe, decrease their male pattern criminality?

At all?

Or are we still discussing wishes based on false premises.

@Datun

TheFairPrincess

Perhaps you don't realise that something like 90% of men who identify as women retain their penis?

and in a perfectly functional state. The surgery referred to is usually no more than breast implants and attempts to feminise the face.