I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

Because I am, that should say. I was upset about Mridul Wadwha

Don't female hormones prevent it from getting hard and ejaculating?

It's a horrible dissonance because I absolutely LOVE people like Contrapoints and I really have a problem with the idea of excluding already marginalised people in such a cut and dry way.

Do you understand safeguarding principles at all?

@TheFairPrincess I and most women on this thread object strenuously to the word TERF given the violent sexual associations which go along with it - www.terfisaslur.com

It's also a banned term on Mumsnet. Please don't use it.

@TheFairPrincess

I understand. It's so difficult. I go back and forth all the time. It's a horrible dissonance because I absolutely LOVE people like Contrapoints and I really have a problem with the idea of excluding already marginalised people in such a cut and dry way.

But I really do understand the inherent and undeniable dissonance, the fact that these people are not women, and have not lived womanhood. I don't know what society should look like, but the public discourse between "TERFs" and "TRAs" is very upsetting and I understand that it must be awful to feel like you don't belong. Where society accepts you just enough to acknowledge you but to still always be treated in the background really as your bio gender.

I think trans women should live their lives as trans women and be fully integrated and supported in that. Maybe dedicated single sex spaces for vulnerable women should never be accessible for non bio women and should be treated as completely separate to "normal" society. I still can't ever imagine forcing TW to use mens toilets. Maybe Unisex. But isn't that cutting off our noses to spite our face and just inviting more men into those spaces?

I don't know. I'm fucking tired, my DC have gone to bed and I've barely seen them, I've been typing on here for hours.

Oh good lord, go and check on your DC. Pour yourself a glass of wine.

This will all still be here tomorrow.

It's extremely emotive, and a very difficult subject, I completely agree.

Many of us have been talking about this for the best part of six years or longer.

It's a very nice characteristic to have, to be empathetic towards people who you consider vulnerable. There is no doubt about that.

The difference here is, I believe, we're not talking about individuals.

But you know what, get a wine, give your partner a hug, check on your kids, and take your foot off the gas. This debate is not going anywhere.

@Helleofabore can you explain what you mean without being patronising? I am not the makers of law saying trans women should be included when possible in these spaces. I am not the people putting trans women in womens prisons. So please don't pretend like I am the only person on the planet who doesn't see things the way you do.

@TheFairPrincess

Don't female hormones prevent it from getting hard and ejaculating?

You are assuming that a TW takes female hormones. And many, many TW use their penises in porn.

@TheFairPrincess

But how do you get justifiably upset about female job positions going to trans women without being transphobic? How the fuck do I justify that to myself?

The Equality Act has single sex exemptions. Transwomen can be excluded (even those with a GRC) if it is a 'proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim'. Such as keeping a service single sex.

Is the Equality Act transphobic?

Thank you @Datun I'm teary now. I'm going to do just that

But how do you get justifiably upset about female job positions going to trans women without being transphobic? How the fuck do I justify that to myself?

Because they're not female?

Seems quite simple to me.

How are these job positions being justified? If it's because women (ie females) are massively underrepresented, then giving those jobs to males isn't accomplishing what they were created for, is it?

In some places, like IT, transwomen are massively overrepresented. If they took "women in IT" places, then that wouldn't leave much for the actual women, who are massively underrepresented.

Women-only places are discrimination. Discrimination is generally bad, so it's only permitted for a specific goal. Generally speaking, allowing transwomen into them undermines the goal (sports, shortlists, safeguarding...)

If it's appropriate to let transwomen in, it's hard to see why men shouldn't be let in. And impossible if it's "self ID".

Don't female hormones prevent it from getting hard and ejaculating?

The truth seems to be no from seeing the number of trans women who advertise their porn activities on twitter. And the males who identify as women who masturbate in female toilets for payment via only fans and on pornhub.

And the reality also seems that testosterone suppression is very variable and unreliable.

So the answer is NO. In fact, it seems you also probably need to go and look up transmaxxing too. There are plenty of ejaculate ready males identifying as women.

I still can't ever imagine forcing TW to use mens toilets.

But it's easy for you to accept forcing women to have fo find males in what they would like to be their safe, female-only spaces.

Can you see what you're doing?
Males' feeling and safety matter.
Females' feeling and safety don't matter.

That's what it boils down to.

You are very focused on TW and don't seem to mind that transmen (who are female) aren't in men's prisons and aren't allowed to go there. Also that transmen cannot claim primogeniture and inherit titles etc because they are still seen as female. So validating people's identity and feeling thay have to be accepted and integrated doesn't stress you that much when it's about female trans people getting these things.

Internalised misogyny - which we all have - means having been trained throughout your whole life to think males matter more than females, and to think women should always step aside for males, allow for their needs, serve them, let them off. That is what you're doing here. That is not an attack, I'm just asking you to examine this.

I absolutely LOVE people like Contrapoints
You might be interested in King Critical's response videos to Contrapoints: www.youtube.com/c/KingArPharaz%C3%B4n/playlists

Don't female hormones prevent it from getting hard and ejaculating?

Many TW with penises are fully sexually active. Read Detransition, Baby for a lot of descriptions of this regarding TW sexual activity with men, or there are the many "translesbians" - TW who are attracted to women and are overwhelming lesbian bars and dating sites and expecting women to entertain them as partners.

@TheFairPrincess

I do get that, I really do, I struggle with this all the time.

I just feel like people who go through their lives as subjects as ridicule and persecution, taking hormones and getting feminisation surgery, all sorts, are really not doing this so they can harm women. That's what I mean when I say we shouldn't discriminate. How can a TW who has gone through all that feel safe in male spaces? If sex is binary, and there isn't a third gender, and they identify, live as women, how can we not include them when they need to be included?

And how often do they even need to be included? Is the time and effort we spend fighting off trans equality worth it? Is there not a middle ground or specific situations where we can say it is or isn't appropriate?

Thank you for hanging around and continuing to talk. I know it's hard when there's just your voice with so many disagreeing! You are doing very well to mostly keep your cool.

How can a TW who has gone through all that feel safe in male spaces? If sex is binary, and there isn't a third gender, and they identify, live as women, how can we not include them when they need to be included?

I don't think that follows. Sex is binary, yes, but socially we can set up as many different groups and spaces as we want. Just because trans women don't fit unproblematically into female-only spaces doesn't mean they have to be in with the males - we can have third spaces, TW spaces, TM spaces, mixed spaces...whatever we want really. But we need to be able to have that conversation openly, and we need to separate safety, which is the reason some TW (and of course other males as well) don't want to be in the Gents, from validation, which is the reason they DO want to be in the Ladies.

But as I said earlier, one thing to consider is that any solution that says "protect this group of vulnerable males from the nasty other males" is by definition also "protect the nasty group of males from any examination, criticism or limitation of their nasty behaviour". So I think society as a whole would be better served by tackling the root problem of bad male behaviour rather than treating it as some sort of unavoidable fact of nature that we all have to bend around.

I don't think I said anything above that would give cause to include any male people in women's spaces, no @TheFairPrincess. Penis or not, I don't think any men should be in places that are supposed to be single sex women's spaces.

I didn't wake up a big meanie one day. I used to unthinkingly nod along to TWAW. I didn't bat an eye at them in loos and changing rooms because I felt sorry for these people who (I thought) hated their bodies so much that they would have the testicals removed and have their penises surgically inverted.

But I've spent the last 3 years reading up on the massive overreach, the backdoor lobbying, the secretive campaigning, the quiet rewriting of policies. I've seen people doxxed, attacked, threatened, sanctioned, sacked, reported to the police and taken to court for believing humans are sexually diamorphic. I've seen rape crisis centres lose funding because they do not do enough to serve males. I've read about males in women's prisons, hospital wards and sports. Policies have been written which allow boys to change with girls and share accommodation on trips. That's just off the top of my head.

That's why I think we have to have very clear boundaries. For me, the easiest way to protect women and girls is just to say no men in women's spaces. It doesn't help women and girls to blur that line or make exceptions. That's why we're in this mess. There are plenty of lobbyists looking after male interests, they don't need my help.

But how do you get justifiably upset about female job positions going to trans women without being transphobic? How the fuck do I justify that to myself?

You have been taken in by the transactivist claim that any questioning or disagreeing with the idea that TWAW is "transphobic". It's not. This claim is used to shut down and silence women who feel uncomfortable with all this, because women are more likely to want to "be kind" and not be bigots/transphobes.

But sex exists, it matters, the sexes are different and women have sex based rights. Those are just facts and it's not transphobic to think or say them. Do you hate all trans people just for being trans? No. Then you are not transphobic. Not wanting to accept untruths and baseless ideology as fact is not transphobia, it's just nonsense-phobia, bullying-phobia and misogyny-phobia.

I think trans women should live their lives as trans women and be fully integrated and supported in that.

Agree, transwomen are transwomen NOT women. They absolutely should be supported to live as transwomen, and the subset of the male sex that they are.

Maybe dedicated single sex spaces for vulnerable women should never be accessible for non bio women and should be treated as completely separate to "normal" society

Retain single sex spaces and services for ALL women and NO males. No need to attempt to stigmatise women as vulnerable in order to use the spaces and services designed for them and them alone. Women, vulnerable or not are members of normal society and do not deserve to be separated out.

I still can't ever imagine forcing TW to use mens toilets. Maybe Unisex. But isn't that cutting off our noses to spite our face and just inviting more men into those spaces?

A separate third gender neutral or unisex space alongside single sex spaces is not cutting off anyone's nose to spite their face. Those women, like you, who care not about sharing spaces with TW could use said space and provide the validation and human shield services required of you.

But how do you get justifiably upset about female job positions going to trans women without being transphobic? How the fuck do I justify that to myself?

I have no idea why you are tying yourself up in knots about this. It is categorically NOT transphobic to deny TW from accessing jobs and roles specifically set aside for females, in fact it is sexist and misogynist to allow them to. Set aside jobs and roles FOR TW and TM that only they can apply for, what is so difficult about that? Trans people have unique needs and experiences let them apply that to jobs and roles where that is required.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Helleofabore can you explain what you mean without being patronising? I am not the makers of law saying trans women should be included when possible in these spaces. I am not the people putting trans women in womens prisons. So please don't pretend like I am the only person on the planet who doesn't see things the way you do.[/quote]
Which questions are you referring to?

The one where I am asking whether evidence to support the fact that some people keep telling us that a segment of males lose their male propensity to commit sex crime?

That you have used a person who carefully curates their on line profile to appear very feminine but still has a penis as an example of someone who should not be in the male prisons and what? possibly included in with females?

Or because I asked if you understood the principles of safeguarding which means that you have to consider the very worst so therefore it needs to absolutely be ‘cut and dried’ to protect women and children. That the continued push that this segment of males should be exempt, like other segments of males in the past who proved exactly how far they are willing to go to access victims?

@TheFairPrincess

Thank you *@Datun* I'm teary now. I'm going to do just that

@TheFairPrincess

Before you mull it all over, chewing on the bits you disagree with, and wanting to have your say, can I tentatively suggest you read this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Bear in mind it was written a couple of years ago. But I think it's still appropriate now. It gets added to all the time.

Internalised misogyny - which we all have - means having been trained throughout your whole life to think males matter more than females, and to think women should always step aside for males, allow for their needs, serve them, let them off. That is what you're doing here. That is not an attack, I'm just asking you to examine this.

I think this is a large component, males above females, but there is also another component on top of that, which I've mentioned a few times before:

The individual versus a cruel uncaring society. This trope, which has been a Disney staple since the 90s, is ingrained in a lot of people.

And in this scenario, the transwoman gets to play the poor misunderstood individual. The women are mere background players.

This sort of thinking puts the needs of the chosen (hero) individual above the needs of the rest of society.

This is not logical. As Spock said - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Give or take a couple of minor wobbles (some understandable, to be fair) you've stood up and said your part one v dozens and stayed very reasonable.

Please perhaps consider what would have been the reverse experience. Indeed, please consider what reception you would have had, had you made some of the statements you have made, on Twitter.

I was reading on Twitter about how few gender critical posters there really were, and how many trans allies. I do not post on Twitter because I am afraid I would lose my job. I am not an unreasonable person, I may occasionally get a little argumentative a couple of glasses of wine into a Saturday night, but I am usually considerate of people's feelings.

But I daren't post as I do on Mumsnet anywhere connected to my real name, because it could very easily have a direct affect on my livelihood, and the well-being of my family (I'm the main bread winner).

Even if I'm wrong, and I only feel that way, isn't that scary? But lots of us feel that way. I don't feel embarrassed to air my views in public. I feel scared. Not of public reception, but of repercussions.

This, as much as who is right or wrong, is the real story. We can have these open discussions here on Mumsnet, and we can all approach this from the perspective that the other people involved are for the most part genuine, honourable and kind.

We don't have that luxury elsewhere. For gender critical Mumsnetters, in local government and PR and charities and sales, the dunking stool awaits.

That on its own is very wrong.

I think trans women should live their lives as trans women and be fully integrated and supported in that.

And this I agree wholeheartedly. But they are NOT females and they should not have access to the spaces and the rights set aside to protect females from discrimination they experience due to their sexed bodies.

They need their own protections and rights because they have unique needs. Shoehorning them into the rights needed by ALL females (including transmen) harms females.

they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe

We've had a lot of ROGD girls at my school in recent years. My experience has been that most kids know this to some degree but that a great many have substantial misconceptions about the biology of it all. I am hopefull that most of these girls will learn to be themselves (whatever that means) without taking too much harm from their experience.

There have been a few girls who have been very vulnerable and have clearly been harmed by their social transition. My feeling is that these girls are swallowing the 'take a pill and become a man' myth completely.

@TheFairPrincess

I agree it's in poor taste to bring out a couple of widely publicised examples of very male looking trans women, they surely are fringe cases and are probably only well known because of the fact they are controversial.

FWIW I think it's shitty to retain all of your male privilege down to your bloody masculine appearance and call yourself trans but maybe there is something I'm not getting.

I really do not understand you. This is the whole point. Men can just call themselves women. That's the end. No more no less. They are now women. They can go all the places women used to have for themselves.
Those many women who cannot share with men for whatever reason will no longer be in public life. How is this a good thing? How does this help women?