I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Datun no I'm a mother of 3 with a male partner.

I do believe trans women are different than cis straight men yes. I really do, clearly that's where the disparity is coming from and why I'm getting so much hate.[/quote]
You're not getting hate. You're getting pushback.

You need to describe why you think they are different. Because statistically in terms of behaviour and crime, they are not. In fact, in terms of prison inmates they are worse.

Do you know what autogynephilia is? Because that's another consideration.

I certainly have compassion for men with gender dysphoria. We are all brought up in a patriarchy after all. Where we part ways is that feminism aims to eliminate the reasons for gender dysphoria, whereas transwomen cement it.

are really not doing this so they can harm women

Not the point. Why don't our needs matter?

Very quick to assume any non agreement is hate, though.

@Datun

Anyway, this will be a very enlightning thread. Hexed wants all men, no matter what, to be given access to women for validation purposes, whilst Princess only wants some.

The answer is no.

Yes. No thank you.

Jane Fae, seriously?

just feel like people who go through their lives as subjects as ridicule and persecution, taking hormones and getting feminisation surgery, all sorts, are really not doing this so they can harm women

What about the vast majority of TW who don't do any of this?

And the middle ground is third spaces which is what transpeople should be fighting for.

@RedDogsBeg why do people keep saying this to me? On the basis of case by case inclusion, that would obviously include the consultation of any other women that would be in the same space. If it's not appropriate for whatever reason it's not appropriate. Emotional harm, physical harm, all of it.

I don't need your validation or approval

I didn't say you did. I'm just sharing my perspective.

How can we live in a society that doesn't care about vulnerable people? We are vulnerable and should be granted protections. They are vulnerable also, and to similar types of crime.

How can we live in a society that doesn't care about women and girls?

We are vulnerable and should be granted protections. They are vulnerable also, and to similar types of crime.

And some are also the perpetrators of this crime. Why are you advocating using women and children as a shield against male violence? If transwomen are vulnerable to other born males, then the answer is to campaign for a third space, or turn the males provision into mixed sex. Not open up the doors of women's spaces to make them even more vulnerable to male crime.

And again, why is your heart bleeding so much for these TW - your idea of a TW, a fully transitioned, harmless innocent victim – and not for the women who are being harmed and intimidated by this situation?

Can you look at that tendency in yourself and see that perhaps you have been socialised to prioritise the feelings of males and always "be kind", and that's what's going on here? And perhaps also that you want to be on the side of inclusibity and goodness, and not nasty bigoted feminism, even though your arguments don't hold up?

Again I'm not trying to be hateful, but to ask why you seem to feel so much more for TW's feelings than for women's when women are demonstrably more vulnerable and less dangerous.

Is the time and effort we spend fighting off trans equality worth it?

What equality don't they have?

I just feel like people who go through their lives as subjects as ridicule and persecution, taking hormones and getting feminisation surgery, all sorts, are really not doing this so they can harm women.

Let’s take the emotion out of this.

Please show us the studies and the statistics that show that this subset of males have a decrease in committing sex crimes and other male pattern crimes.

Drop the emotionally charged rhetoric, let’s focus on facts please.

[quote TheFairPrincess]**@RedDogsBeg* why do people keep saying this to me? On the basis of case by case inclusion, that would obviously include the consultation of any other women that would be in the same space. If it's not appropriate for whatever* reason it's not appropriate. Emotional harm, physical harm, all of it.[/quote]
Where women are properly consulted they will generally say no.

The issue is that women aren't being consulted and are being ignored.

I have already apologised for using the word hate, you don't need to continue to belittle me.

Who is saying women's needs don't matter? Of course they do. You can't argue that all women have the same opinion on trans inclusion or feel uncomfortable. Single sex spaces, designed inherently for vulnerable people like prisoners or SA survivors, are not representative of where and how the majority of people live most of their lives.

RedDogsBeg why do people keep saying this to me?

Because it's really stark how little women matter to many people. And again, what does the reasonable, proportionate case by case exclusion of an MTF trans person look like and what criteria do we apply to decide?

But why not fix the issue of women being ignored then? Why focus on refusing trans people rights on the premise that someone might feed offended at their presence, or uncomfortable?

You can't argue that all women have the same opinion on trans inclusion or feel uncomfortable.

Polls show that most women don't want legal self ID or to share female spaces with pre op MTF trans people.

Single sex spaces, designed inherently for vulnerable people like prisoners or SA survivors, are not representative of where and how the majority of people live most of their lives

You are incorrect. They are designed for all women who (as a class) are vulnerable to men (as a class). There are very few (if any) single sex spaces where it would be appropriate to include a male. It is of course also absolutely fine to have women only groups as it is to have trans only groups.

But why not fix the issue of women being ignored then?

Why don't you stop ignoring what women are saying then? It's not up to you to give our spaces to males.

An example I discussed with my partner is Blair White. She is a post op, completely feminine looking trans woman. How would it be appropriate for her to be in a men's prison and how would her physical appearance and lack of penis be universally triggering to other women?

I haven't given up anything! I'm not in charge. Why are you acting like I have literally any more power over this situation than you do?

Why focus on refusing trans people rights on the premise that someone might feed offended at their presence, or uncomfortable?

What rights don't trans people have? They already have more protection than women in law.

Single sex spaces, designed inherently for vulnerable people like prisoners or SA survivors, are not representative of where and how the majority of people live most of their lives

So is that a red line? That in many cases it would be appropriate to exclude all males?

I also have self ID concerns but not concerns against trans people as a whole, there is a difference.

But why not fix the issue of women being ignored then?

And might you suggest a way to do that right now without being branded as transphobic. Without the experts like Joan Smith being sacked. Without people like Jo Cherry receiving hate and rape threats?

Just how do you think that can happen in the current political climate.

How would it be appropriate for her to be in a men's prison

Because Blair White is male? But I think you'll find that most of us support third spaces for trans people. You can join them there if you want.